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Nov 17

Update: Exiled Tibetans from Around the World Meet in Dharamsala for Six Days

Written by Allen on Monday, November 17th, 2008 at 5:13 am
Filed under:Announcements, General, News | Tags:
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Exiled Tibetans from around the world are gathering in Dharamsala for their largest political conference in nearly 60 years. The Dalai Lama has called for the six-day meeting, which begins Monday, after failing to make progress in negotiations with China. The Tibetan spiritual leader has promised to let everything be on the table and not to make any major pronouncements during the conference

This thread is an open invitation for people – including (actually, especially) exiled Tibetans – to provide updates for us here regarding the meeting throughout the week.  If our Tibetan friends (such as Lobsang, Tensin, skylight, The Trapped!, and others) do contribute, please welcome them in the spirit of peace and open dialogue – even if many of us may not agree on history, facts, ideology, or visions for our future.

I personally will not contribute much to this thread – partly because I am here to listen, not to comment – and partly because I will be travelling to Taiwan (visiting family and friends) and Yunnan (as a tourist) over the next 2-3 weeks.


There are currently 4 comments highlighted: 20021, 20045, 20249, 20409.

141 Responses to “Update: Exiled Tibetans from Around the World Meet in Dharamsala for Six Days”

  1. drifter lu Says:

    i am a chinese and ,,, frankly speaking i don’t think the independence of tibet is the best choice ,, but,, i am not tibetan, and only the tibetan people can decide the future of the land they’ve lived for thouands of years. .. i believe the most tibetan people love peace, and i hope my compatriots can have a try ,, try to understand this outstanding nation with a history as long and glorious as ours… think on their positions,, and …learn to forgive and apologize,, anyway no more bloodshed

  2. TonyP4 Says:

    Will some one answer the following questions for me?

    1. How many Tibetans are abroad and their distribution?

    2. What is the total Tibetans in China?

    3. How many Hans and the % are in Tibet?

    4. Who funds the meeting ( I bet not from CIA this time)?

    5. What kind of food they serve? Any entertainment? will the girls in the following web site be there? This question is just for fun.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVaPR0mFFio&feature=related

  3. Wukailong Says:

    @TonyP4: Wow, that movie was bizarre. 🙂 Somehow it reminded me of the song “One night in Beijing”. It might just be the odd mix…

  4. Wukailong Says:

    My local ISP blocked YouTube for me temporarily after watching that… Maybe the music was too sensitive, it would make people into separatists or something? 😉

  5. TonyP4 Says:

    You’ve not read Beijing Tomorrow that CCP just bought YouTube, the first priority in the 586 Billion package. 🙂

  6. TonyP4 Says:

    I got some answers from Wikipedia as follows (paste and out does not do a good job0. It is 2000 census and it could be outdated.

    http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2008/11/17/update-6-day-exiled-tibetans-from-around-the-world-meet-in-dharamsala/#comment-19972

    P = Prefecture; AP = Autonomous prefecture; PLC = Prefecture-level city; AC = Autonomous county.

    Excludes members of the People’s Liberation Army in active service.

    Major ethnic groups in Greater Tibet by region, 2000 census.

    Total Tibetans Han
    Tibet Autonomous Region: 2,616,329 2,427,168 92.8% 158,570 6.1% 30,591 1.2%
    – Lhasa PLC 474,499 387,124 81.6% 80,584 17.0% 6,791 1.4%
    – Qamdo Prefecture 586,152 563,831 96.2% 19,673 3.4% 2,648 0.5%
    – Shannan Prefecture 318,106 305,709 96.1% 10,968 3.4% 1,429 0.4%
    – Xigazê Prefecture 634,962 618,270 97.4% 12,500 2.0% 4,192 0.7%
    – Nagqu Prefecture 366,710 357,673 97.5% 7,510 2.0% 1,527 0.4%
    – Ngari Prefecture 77,253 73,111 94.6% 3,543 4.6% 599 0.8%
    – Nyingchi Prefecture 158,647 121,450 76.6% 23,792 15.0% 13,405 8.4%
    Qinghai Province: 4,822,963 1,086,592 22.5% 2,606,050 54.0% 1,130,321 23.4%
    – Xining PLC 1,849,713 96,091 5.2% 1,375,013 74.3% 378,609 20.5%
    – Haidong Prefecture 1,391,565 128,025 9.2% 783,893 56.3% 479,647 34.5%
    – Haibei AP 258,922 62,520 24.1% 94,841 36.6% 101,561 39.2%
    – Huangnan AP 214,642 142,360 66.3% 16,194 7.5% 56,088 26.1%
    – Hainan AP 375,426 235,663 62.8% 105,337 28.1% 34,426 9.2%
    – Golog AP 137,940 126,395 91.6% 9,096 6.6% 2,449 1.8%
    – Gyêgu AP 262,661 255,167 97.1% 5,970 2.3% 1,524 0.6%
    – Haixi AP 332,094 40,371 12.2% 215,706 65.0% 76,017 22.9%
    Tibetan areas in Sichuan province
    – Ngawa AP 847,468 455,238 53.7% 209,270 24.7% 182,960 21.6%
    – Garzê AP 897,239 703,168 78.4% 163,648 18.2% 30,423 3.4%
    – Muli AC 124,462 60,679 48.8% 27,199 21.9% 36,584 29.4%
    Tibetan areas in Yunnan province
    – Dêqên AP 353,518 117,099 33.1% 57,928 16.4% 178,491 50.5%
    Tibetan areas in Gansu province
    – Gannan AP 640,106 329,278 51.4% 267,260 41.8% 43,568 6.8%
    – Tianzhu AC 221,347 66,125 29.9% 139,190 62.9% 16,032 7.2%
    Total for Greater Tibet:
    With Xining and Haidong 10,523,432 5,245,347 49.8% 3,629,115 34.5% 1,648,970 15.7%
    Without Xining and Haidong 7,282,154 5,021,231 69.0% 1,470,209 20.2% 790,714 10.9%

  7. JTP Says:

    Anyone noticed this report from Telegraph?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/3385803/UK-recognises-Chinas-direct-rule-over-Tibet.html

  8. loten namling Says:

    I am a tibetan and a musicain living in Switzerland. as a tibetan i was always aware of the circumstances evolving around me. our cause is a genuine one. and i believe in it. if not why should the chinese keep on lying one after another to cover up or distort history. i beleive that only thier weakness is closing them to come out a talk openly with the dalai lama. dalai lama is one of the most respected leader today.

    they accuse dalai lama of lying and some wierd notion that he has some hidden agenda behind all his peace talks. hi wake up chinese from the dungeons of evil…

    just think ….

    would a man of such status betray or lie in front of all his well wishers and peace loving people who had been supporting his just cause for the last fifty years?

    would he as a great saint and a true follower of buddha and gandhi, go against the basic teachings of all great teachings? i.e…..not to lie!

    Chinese leaders are not stupid but they are no saints. they know exactly that dalai lamas words are the truth and the only truth.

    these chinese leaders are all corrupted, selfish, arrogant,just as evil as mao who did not hesitated to kill his own people(more than 50 million.) for his own pleasure.

    its high time that they come to senses and accept dalai lamas proposals. we may be less in numbers but we are strong people and the spirit of tibet will haunt every chinese communist living on this earth, where ever they go…. this we swear.

    also i want to tell our leaders who are gathering in dhasa not to panic about it. we must remain calm and rededicate all our forces to a single pointed solution, that is either accept his holiness’ position or we all die for an independent tibet.

    dont let down the scarifices of those tibetans in tibet who are in prisons and those who died for us.

    bod gyal lo
    free tibet

  9. shel Says:

    Some tibetan exile are a spoilt lot. They think it is easy to claim a vast land mass in the world as their own. No, this world does not belong to individuals, it belong to all who come together in trying to live a progressive life, something call a nation. If you are not capable of leading, don’t force your way to lead, it will be a disaster.

  10. loten namling Says:

    tibet belongs to tibetans and not china. we are not hungry after others land . you chinese imperialist wanted more land to suck more blood on our land. thats the truth, my dear. we are and were cabable of leading our own people and for centuries we did that without any famine or any other disasters which you chinese are famous for.
    chinas invasion of tibet is a hell on earth. but enough is enough. we will fight until our last breath and this will go on for generations untill chinese leaders will come to a sense.

  11. Leo Says:

    Let us fight!

  12. loten namling Says:

    to fight for a just cause is worth everything on this earth
    wake up and stand up for your rights.
    me and many of my friends were born without a land
    it was just an unfortunate karma
    but to have a land before our last breath
    is in our own hands.

  13. miaka9383 Says:

    I am not against the Tibetan Cause nor am I for it…
    I am curious on how many percent of Tibetans that LIVES there wants an autonomous government without china…
    and If they are going to be “independent” and “kick out” the invaders… are the Tibetans going back to Serfdom?
    How are they going to deal with the slow modernization by the CCP and then all of the sudden all of these modernization are gone?

  14. loten namling Says:

    serfdom is a myth communist party still hangs on to prove thier action in tibet.
    from the day dalai lama set his foot in india, he abolished all that was past and set a new agenda for a democratic tibet. ever since 1961 we have a new constitution which will be immediately implemented on the day of a free tibet. check http://www.tibet.net

  15. bt Says:

    @ Loten Namling

    Mr. Loten Namling, I just browsed your website and listened to some of your musical plays (wow, you even played with Sepultura!).
    Anyway, respects from a neighbor in the French Alps!
    May all Tibetans be happy in the future!

  16. loten namling Says:

    you are welcome

  17. my_mother Says:

    @ Loten Namling

    May US ALL be happy in the future!

    peace
    Kain

  18. Ms Chief Says:

    It’s simplistic and as unlikely as finding that the moon is made of cheese, not to mention all the logistical nightmares and problems with corruption and fairness, but does anyone think that having a referendum would be a good way to settle the issue once and for all?

    So much time and effort seems to be directed over the argument for/against Tibetan independence, and China’s right to sovereignty, but there seems to be very little dialogue about how to move forward and away from the stalemate situation.

    It seems that everyone’s shouting apart from the people who really matter. We hear from Tibetans in exile, Chinese anti-separatists, Western supporters of Tibetan independence etc. but the voices most important here are the silent ones of those who actually live in Tibet. I’d say that the Tibetans in exile have valid grievances but ultimately they should not be the ones to decide the future of the Tibetans in Tibet.

    I think the referendum should present 3 options – independence or not, and autonomy.

    I don’t know what the result would be, but if I were to speculate, I’d guess that Tibetans in Tibet would not prefer outright independence because of the benefits they’ve received in health, education and material wealth. If the result were any but outright independence, the Chinese government would have won the PR war against the pro-independence supporters both within and outside Tibet because its people have chosen for themselves. However, people’s preferences and the way they vote aren’t the same. I think the main obstacle to Tibetans choosing autonomy is that it won’t in practice be honoured by the Chinese government and would be interpreted as a continuation of the current situation.

    The Chinese government would obviously have a very big problem if the vote went for independence.

    I’d be interested to read what people think about having a referendum. Is the government justified in not allowing Tibetans the right to self-determination? Would it spell the beginning of the end for China, where other provinces would want the right to a vote and subsequently vote for independence? Or would it help to unify the country, taking a step towards democracy and silencing its critics?

    What else can be done to help resolve the issues?

    I’d also be interested to find out how people think the vote would go in this hypothetical referendum. No one really knows, but it’s still interesting to speculate.

  19. Joe The Waiter Says:

    Check this out:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/3385803/UK-recognises-Chinas-direct-rule-over-Tibet.html

  20. pug_ster Says:

    @Loten Namling,

    Perhaps the Chinese leaders are a bunch of crooks and thugs. However, demonizing China as the big bogeyman will not change the situation in Tibet. Telling the Chinese citizens to wake up and believe in the Dalai Lama didn’t and won’t change the situation in Tibet. Protests, violent protests, boycotts, pressure on Western Nations and even terrorism didn’t and won’t change the situation in Tibet.

    The fact of the matter is that Tibetan freedom movement is weak compared China as a country. Might makes right. Why do you think a good amount of their GDP on their military but they have never used it to fight a war? The other western countries respect China’s sovereignty over Tibet and they will not interfere with the Tibetan fight for Autonomy or independence. Instead the best the Western Nations can do is to shame China and to tell Tibet and China should have more talks.

    I’m not critical of the Tibetans themselves, as I feel sorry for them. The Dalai Lama has promised with his ‘divine’ power promised to give back the Shangra-la back to its fellow Tibetans, but instead brought them more disappointment. The Dalai Lama has failed as a leader and a diplomat. Many Tibetans in China just want to see the Dalai Lama and many Tibetans in exile just want to see Lhasa, but the Dalai Lama with his ‘my way or the highway’ attitude toward the Chinese leaders just put a wall between the 2 groups. Don’t start interpreting the Chinese laws, and thinks that the Chinese Leaders are dumb enough to ‘buy in’ the so called ‘Middle way’ approach. Chinese leaders doesn’t have to listen to ultimatums from the Dalai Lama.

    The Dalai Lama puts pressure to China doesn’t work. Fighting the Chinese definitely does not work. Angry protest does not work. If the Dalai Lama advocates non-violence, he should stop his saber rattling toward China and consider the what China and Taiwan did, have constructive and direct talks. Tibetans in Exile should be realistic and realize that they don’t have a lot of options in the Tibet-China situation.

  21. loten namling Says:

    pug-ster
    why would your govt change the programs on cnn and all the other life telecast of olympic protest in paris etc.if your leaders are not weak and believe in what they assert over tibet, why did nt they let the common chinese have a taste of true democratically chanalised informations on the veiws of the others in this world.
    and let chinese people decide for themselves.

    i really feel sorry for you and the likes.

    dalai lama has for the sake of tibetan and the chinese peoples peaceful future has painfully given up independence of tibet. this he has done in the presense of whole world. if you still dont believe in the value of world community, than i really think that its just crazy to even spent my time writting to you. honestly…are a human being!

  22. Wukailong Says:

    @admin: This is a request to highlight Ms Chief’s comment above (#18). 😉

  23. Wukailong Says:

    @pug_ster: “Many Tibetans in China just want to see the Dalai Lama and many Tibetans in exile just want to see Lhasa, but the Dalai Lama with his ‘my way or the highway’ attitude toward the Chinese leaders just put a wall between the 2 groups. Don’t start interpreting the Chinese laws, and thinks that the Chinese Leaders are dumb enough to ‘buy in’ the so called ‘Middle way’ approach. Chinese leaders doesn’t have to listen to ultimatums from the Dalai Lama.”

    You’re basically saying that the DL is trying to bully the Chinese government with his ultimatums, while they themselves are very easy to work with and present no obstacles at all?

  24. loten namling Says:

    i am off for now to tour musically, free of any angst that might hinder my cultural journey
    but see you soon in couple days,,,,,,

  25. Allen Says:

    @Ms Chief,

    I don’t have much time … but for your info, here is a list of active secessionist movements from around the world according to the wiki. Let me know if you believe if all these “conflicts” should be submitted to a referendum – and in case if not, why not?

    I have written extensively on what I believe are the flaws of self determination as understood by the majority of people. If you are interested, let me know, I can lead another round of discussion after I get back in about 3 weeks.

  26. Malaysian Chinese Says:

    Mainland Chinese should be well aware that they should never allow the so-called minorities, be they Tibetans, Uighuirs, Mongolians, Koreans, Manchurians etc take the reign of power on any part of Chinese soils for this will mean the end of the Chinese nation as a single united entity & it shall also mean untold miseries to the majority Han population.

    Take the case of M’sian Chinese for example, you guys just may not realise how frustrating & humiliating to live as a minority oppressed by a far less civilised, incompetent, unintelligent, lazy, religiously-bigoted, backward Malays:

    .Malays can have all Cs to get into pretigious faculties in local universities while minorities have got to get all As to qualify
    .denials of some business licenses in some stragetic & lucrative fields to minority races
    .Malays enjoy almost 99% monopoly on civil service, armed forces, police & other paramilitary establishments in the public sectors
    .others too lengthy to described here

    Just throw all those benevolent Confucianist craps about how one should treat minorities “extra” well to win hearts & minds into the rubbish bins. They should only be treated in one & only one way~just like any other ordinary Chinese on the Mainstreet, nothing more & nothing less!

    Next time if there is ever gonna be another Zheng He around travelling to the South Sea, make sure ‘HE’ does not come with another Princess Hang Li Po to be given away to the barbarians (they will never be grateful at all). These people only respect might & power but despise the softly-softly approach. This history must be learned!

    .

  27. Wukailong Says:

    @Malaysian Chinese: So you’re saying that Chinese people treat minorities better, per se? Or that they should never allow other people to rule in what you consider to be Chinese territory, otherwise the former minorities will oppress you?

  28. pug_ster Says:

    @Wukailong 23

    I never said that the Dalai Lama’s Tibetan’s are easy to work with, their demands are rigid and there’s little room for compromise from them, thus the word ‘my way or the highway.’

    @loten namling 21

    Most Chinese who have understood Chinese history know the consequence of a weak military. China was overrun by Great Britain during the Opium wars, allowed the KMT split from China and overrun by the Japanese at around WWII. For most Chinese, if it comes to ‘being nice’ and let Dalai Lama run Tibet, or claiming sovereignty over Tibet, the choice is obvious.

  29. bob Says:

    Many donations to “exile Tibetan government” are channelled through the New York-based Tibet Fund, set up in 1981 by Tibetan refugees and US citizens. It has grown into a multimillion-dollar organisation that disburses $US3 million each year to its various programs.

    Part of its funding comes from the US State Department’s Bureau for Refugee Programs.

    Like many Asian politicians, the Dalai Lama has been remarkably nepotistic, appointing members of his family to many positions of prominence. In recent years, three of the six members of the Kashag, or cabinet, the highest executive branch of the Tibetan government-in-exile, have been close relatives of the Dalai Lama.

    An older brother served as chairman of the Kashag and as the minister of security. He also headed the CIA-backed Tibetan contra movement in the 1960s.

    A sister-in-law served as head of the government-in-exile’s planning council and its Department of Health.

    A younger sister served as health and education minister and her husband served as head of the government-in-exile’s Department of Information and International Relations.

    Their daughter was made a member of the Tibetan parliament in exile. A younger brother has served as a senior member of the private office of the Dalai Lama and his wife has served as education minister.

    The second wife of a brother-in-law serves as the representative of the Tibetan government-in-exile for northern Europe and head of international relations for the government-in-exile. All these positions give the Dalai Lama’s family access to millions of dollars collected on behalf of the government-in-exile.

    The Dalai Lama might now be well-known but few really know much about him. For example, contrary to widespread belief, he is not a vegetarian. He eats meat. He has done so (he claims) on a doctor’s advice following liver complications from hepatitis. I have checked with several doctors but none agrees that meat consumption is necessary or even desirable for a damaged liver.

    What has the Dalai Lama actually achieved for Tibetans inside Tibet?

    If his goal has been independence for Tibet or, more recently, greater autonomy, then he has been a miserable failure.

    He has kept Tibet on the front pages around the world, but to what end? The main achievement seems to have been to become a celebrity. Possibly, had he stayed quiet, fewer Tibetans might have been tortured, killed and generally suppressed by China.

    In any event, the current Dalai Lama is 72 years old. His successor — a reincarnation — will be appointed as a child and it will be many years before he plays a meaningful role. As far as China is concerned, that is one problem that will take care of itself, irrespective of whether or not John Howard or Kevin Rudd meet the current Dalai Lama.

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/behind-dalai-lamas-holy-cloak/2007/05/22/1179601410290.html?page=1

  30. Wukailong Says:

    @pug_ster: I was unclear. Here’s what I mean, the same sentence but slightly rewritten:

    You’re basically saying that the DL is trying to bully the Chinese government with his ultimatums, while they themselves [the Chinese government] are very easy to work with and present no obstacles at all?

  31. Wukailong Says:

    Btw, I just enjoyed a funny thought experiment: let’s say I was the target of Chinese propaganda. I guess that after a decade or so, Chinese would grow up hating me and engaging in heated debates about why I’m so horrible. Everything I did would be doubted, and I would be called things like “a man whose names stinks for 10000 generations”, “a lackey of Western forces” etc.

    Like an old friend of mind said, it was the Soviets who began with the violent rhetoric. Other communist countries were happy to follow in the same league, even though they are not necessarily communist anymore. Western media has its propaganda, but it tends to refrain from calling people names, which I guess is quite intelligent in the long run. It’s a bit hard to take it seriously when media here says DL is a “jackal in monk’s clothing.”

  32. TonyP4 Says:

    Hi Tibetans and fellow Chinese,

    I respect your opinions, your cultures…

    I believe DL is the best salesman on earth. If there were one for Inner Mongolia, one for Qinghai, one for Manchuria…, we’ll be busy protesting and anti protesting – not a peaceful world to me!

    Please let me know whether the Tibetans are treated less than the Hans – tell me what you lose and gain in last 50 years.

    I have a hard time to find out the population of Tibet in TAR and outside. CCP and Tibetan exile have different figures to support their own arguments.

    I like to add your thoughts to the short note I wrote below. I post it from time to time to comments on articles on Tibet aiming at Chinese bashers. I like to add your side of the story as long as they’re accurate.

    ——-
    Free Tibet, my ass

    Please do not liberate my country. I understand your energy, good nature and idealism. I was the same when I was at your age.

    First, thanks you all. Now, I’m a naturalized US citizen collecting generous welfare benefits. You do not understand how my life has been improved staying here. Just imagine living in the highest mountain in your country year round.

    There are always folks wanting to be kings and queens. They have their ambitions and revolutionary ideas. The last ones went to India. They do not speak for the common folks who just want a peaceful life.

    News on Tibet must feed a lot of reporters in the west but hurt their conscience. Some are not true. The recent Tibetan riot was started when Han Chinese were murdered but was reported wrongly with photos that were bought and modified to indicate it was the other way round.

    The Chinese will not give up Tibet. It is the major water source for most of Asia. We get more from the Chinese than giving back. Our standard of living improves substantially and so is our literacy rate.

    The new train and the proposed 750 small dams to generate electricity are recent gifts. I bet the extraction of natural Chinese will improve our living standard further. It is the same as opening a casino in an Indian reservation. The benefits outnumber the drawbacks.

    China had been ruled by Mongolians and Manchurians. We’re one of the 55 minorities, same as the blacks in your country or the Quebec French in Canada.

    Unless you can convince your congress to send soldiers to ‘liberate’ us, please do not stir up our rebellious sentiment towards the Chinese. The more you do, the more our folks suffer and ‘disappear’.

    Spend your energy elsewhere. The choices are unlimited. It sounds like propaganda. I want you to know that I have no connection with the Chinese government. I just want to be realistic and the world will be more peaceful without your demonstrations.

  33. pug_ster Says:

    @Wukailong 30

    I don’t think China have to be flexible to Dalai Lama’s demands, as they are the 800lb gorilla.

    @Wukailong 31

    I don’t see what is the difference between some Western countries describes some of their enemies. I recall Bush have a couple of nicknames for Saddam Hussein, like Ruthless Dictator and such.

    @bob 29

    Thanks for your post. It is interesting that the Tibetan in Exile government seems more than a family run business.

  34. Netizen K Says:

    The Tibet problem has become unsolvable for a number of reasons.

    First, the Dalai Lama title is a fusion of religious and political position. This kind of state and religion fusion is a backward setup. Politicians can change their mind but religious ones can’t.

    The mindset of many exiled Tibetans are totally brainwashed by their religious leaders and are not reality based in terms of history and future options.

    Second, the greater Tibet is a non-starter. How was the Tibetan religion spread? By war and conquest. Why the would the Chinese accept that? Those now-Tibetans in the neighbouring provinces might have been Han people many centuries ago anyway.

    It would be like India claim China is part of India because China has Budhism as of its main religions.

    Or it would be like China claim Japan is part of China because Japanese borrowed the Chinese language.

    It doesn’t make any sense.

  35. wukong Says:

    @Wukailong 31:

    Those “violent rhetoric” are of neither Soviet nor communist origin, they are (intentionally) butchered translation of Chinese idioms and modern cliches.

    “a man whose names stinks for 10000 generations”: butchered translation of a Chinese idiom, 千古罪人(a sinner for a 1,000 years) . Of course, even with the right literal translation, the proper meaning is still lost.

    “jackal in monk’s clothing”: a more proper translation should “a wolf in monk’s clothing”, a borrowing from the modern cliche “a wolf in sheep’s clothing”, a western saying that made its way into modern Chinese culture.

    I read a story about how during the Korean wary, Chinese government sent repeated warning to Truman administration official that if Gen. MacArthur pushed toward the Yalu River, the PLA shall not “sit aside idle with hands in the sleeves”(袖手旁观). Those officials were baffled at the wordings and probably even found it “a bit hard to take it seriously”. We all know what happened next. I bet they won’t make the same mistakes again.

    Speaking of “violent rhetoric”, I generally disregards articles with phrases like “Beijing regime”, “communist China” and “dictators/butchers of Beijing”.

  36. wukong Says:

    @K 34:

    For Exile Tibetans there is a “Tibet problem”, and it’s unsolvable; but for China there is only a “Dalai problem” , Tibet is an already settled issue.

    But Exile Tibetans for most part aren’t Chinese citizens. They may claim refugee status for various reasons like emigrating to western countries, but most were born outside of China. It’s as likely for them to settle in China as a random Chinese person to settle in US, not matter what the outcome.

    For Chinese government, the main concern in Tibet has to be social stability and economic development. I don’t believe those provincial officials wake up in the morning and the first thing they worry about is what DL has said or done.

  37. Leo Says:

    Wukong,

    Bingo! The real big problem for the exiled Tibetans is that there ISN’T a Tibet problem for the Chinese.

    The only issue that the Chinese have related to Tibet is the southern Tibet occupied by the Indians.

    If the His Holyness and the our exiled Tibetan compatriots would be so kind, please go to the southern Tibet and enjoy their Free Tibet there! Dare they!

  38. Wukailong Says:

    @pug_ster (#33): OK, the Chinese government doesn’t “have to” be flexible. Then if that’s so acceptable, why do you feel upset with the DL’s alleged inflexibility?

    @wuming (#35): No, the saying with 10000 generations is another one, and there is no intentional butchering of the phrases. Next thing, I’m not against the sayings themselves – all languages have similar things – it’s that they used together so much and in that aggressive way that disturbs me.

    “Speaking of “violent rhetoric”, I generally disregards articles with phrases like “Beijing regime”, “communist China” and “dictators/butchers of Beijing”.”

    I do too. Now I guess your intention was to say that the Western media does it too, so I don’t bother. That’s not my opinion and I actually wrote that (and communist China, while we’re at it, is mostly an American saying). There’s still a world of difference. It isn’t just what they say, it’s that they constantly attack everyone that’s even the slightest anti-CCP.

    @Leo (#37): There are Taiwanese who say there is no Taiwan problem. Would that be a basis of giving up that conflict altogether?

  39. Nobody Says:

    Re: 千古罪人 “Eternal Sinner(s)”: Adam & Eve(?)

    Re: “a western saying “a wolf in sheep’s skin”: Most religious-political leaders

    袖手旁观 “To watch with folded arms,” such as the Western starving-out the Commies decades-long embargo of Cuba and Mao’s China as if Communist and those living in Communist countries are disposable humans. Someone mentioned “World Community,” somewhere here. Yeah, right. Then there were the US/CIA supported Suharto’s slaugthering of East Timor, the Chinese masacre in Indonesia. World Community my foot.

    http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A77269

    http://www.ahealedplanet.net/lies.htm

    There’s still a world of difference. (Ha ha, 小器鬼, Euro-centrism: ,“只许州官放火,不许百姓点灯”) 公説公有理,婆説婆有理; 甲说甲的对﹐乙说乙的对﹐各执一词。

    “It isn’t just what they say,” (Hm, “只许周公放火,不许百姓点灯”such juvenile generalisation. )

  40. wukong Says:

    I stand corrected.

    遗臭万年:a man whose names stinks for 10000 generations

    千古罪人: a sinner for a 1,000 years.

    Again these are Chinese idioms and they strictly belong to the “figure of speech” category. They are often used to stress a point, and should never be taken literally.

    As you have experienced, even the literally faithful translation can sound comically and overly aggressive to average English speakers who are not versed in Chinese culture. But such is the problem of translating between Chinese and English.

  41. Ted Says:

    @wukong 35: “Those “violent rhetoric” are of neither Soviet nor communist origin, they are (intentionally) butchered translation of Chinese idioms and modern cliches.”

    Then the China Daily needs to do a better job translating its own language.

  42. Wukailong Says:

    @Wukong (#40): No problem.

    I don’t have a problem with sayings as such. They make Chinese a richer language than English IMHO. Some people can string a multitude of them together in one sentence without it sounding stilted, which is quite impressive.

    To really explain what I mean, I could use Zhu Rongji as an example. When he discussed the Taiwanese leadership, especially Chen Shuibian and the Minjindang, he also used old sayings but in a much more civilized way. He just said about them: “司马昭之心,路人皆知,不就是有人要搞台湾独立吗?” I liked that figure of speech, as I liked what he said about his economic policies: “不管前面是地雷阵还是万丈深渊,我都将鞠躬尽瘁,死而后已。”

    I’m not bothered by the figures of speech. I’m just bothered by how they are used together in a very polemical way. And yes, I’ve seen similar things in Western editorials about “Beijing butchers” and the like. I guess I just loath polemics, that’s all, and I’ve seen more of it in the Chinese press in what’s supposed to just be news articles. As an example, does Chen Shuibian never speak but always “叫嚣”? (Well, these days he probably doesn’t open his mouth much anyway)

    I’ve had discussions with people who are constantly referring to the “Chinese regime” too, and the constant repetition in Western media that “the Chinese side regards Taiwan as a renegade province”, which makes China look wrong without even having been able to voice their argument.

    So this is not about “只许州官放火,不许百姓点灯”. I have issues both with 州官 and 百姓. 😉

  43. Wukailong Says:

    One example from Western media, with similar problems:

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1859971,00.html

    I think there are interesting things in the article. But then there is this:

    “The Tibetans said they had presented a memorandum with suggestions on how autonomy might be structured; the predictable reaction from China was one of outrage.”

    The Chinese side never responded angrily, as far as I remember; rather, it dismissed the proposal. “outrage” looks like it’s used to make the Chinese side looks ferocious.

    “(…) dredged up old charges about the Tibetan leader’s alleged failure to prevent exile groups from staging protests at the Beijing Olympics this summer.”

    “dredged up”, “old charges”… Not true either. The charges are around half a year old and well… “dredged up”…

    “one official alleging that the Nobel Peace Prize winner’s proposal for policies favoring Tibetans was a form of ethnic cleansing”

    Well, that’s what he said. But mentioning the peace prize here makes it look as if the official was just out of his mind to present this idea. That’s not true.

    So much for 州官的火.

  44. Hongkonger Says:

    WKL…# 43…good points….

    You mentioned your love for pickled herring and crispbread….are you Swedish or Norwegian?
    I once knew a young Norwegian in HK (around 1993) who picked up the Chinese (Cantonese) in a matter of a few short months. I was really impressed with him. He hung out with HK men with tattoos and did Kung Fu. I bet you can’t tell he is Norwegian from speaking to him in Chinese over the phone by now. Then I met a Cantonese teacher (around 1999) whose students were Europeans working in HK. She herself is from Denmark or Sweden, I can’t remember…very impressive folks. European girls are so different from say, American girls. I used to have a few good Dutch, German, Swiss & English female friends. It was from them that I acquired the taste for muesli and yoghurt and very strong coffee…Such wonderful people.

  45. Michael Says:

    To all the tibetans:

    Resistance is futile. Your 2 million are no match against 1 billion. The whole world accepts tibet as Chinese property and it does not matter what you feel about it.

  46. Mike C Says:

    As long as the Chinese insist on a policy of repression, murder, torture and occupation in Tibet, the issue of Tibet will hang like a millstone around the neck of the Chinese nation and drag it surely into collapse

    What we saw at the Olympic ceremonies was a beginning. It will get stronger. People around the world know what the Chinese are doing in Tibet now. We will not be silent. We will keep up the pressure on our governments, our free press, our societies to speak up for the rights of the Tibetan people.

    Most Chinese like to imagine that the Tibetans are without friends. This is a dangerous illusion that they should shake off if they care about the future of China.

  47. Michael Says:

    @Mike C

    Explain how Tibet would drag China into collapse…

    The whole world knows what happens in Tibet, nobody cares. Nobody has cared for 60 years. They are not going to cross a powerful nation that they want to do business with. Does Tibet have any oil? No. 🙂

  48. bt Says:

    Dragging into collapse probably not, but it is very interesting to see people going balistic like that.
    If it is so true that there is no problem and if it is so true that ‘nobody cares’, they wouldn’t be like that.

    The world is watching you, China.

  49. Michael Says:

    @bt

    But it’s true, nobody cares. Human rights and blah blah blah is only relavent when the country in question is weak and poor and at the mercy of western nations.

    China is big, strong and has a good economy. The west does not have the political will to do anything, nor do they have any reason for it.

  50. bt Says:

    Concentrate on what the Tibetans say, instead of being so obssesed about what the West think.
    Your problem is wiith the minorities, not with me.

    China is big and strong? We will see, time will tell. We are watching.

  51. Michael Says:

    Ah, but I don’t care what the west think. So why would I care what tibetans think? Fate has decided that they become Chinese. 🙂

    Our supremacy is umatched for thousands of years.

  52. bt Says:

    So, what are you doing here?

  53. Michael Says:

    What are you doing here?

    Suffering from being an old european who sees his homeland taken over by arabs and africans? 😉

  54. bt Says:

    hahaha 🙂

  55. Ted Says:

    Can anyone explain the following assertion from this China Daily article? http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-11/11/content_7191876.htm

    “Promises broken

    In an earlier round of talks held in July, the Dalai Lama’s representatives said they had no problem following the “four not-to-supports” put forward by the central authorities, but completely broke that promise, Zhu said.

    The four promises were: not supporting activities that disrupted the upcoming Beijing Olympic Games; not supporting plots inciting violent criminal activities; not supporting, and concretely curbing, violent terrorist activities of the pro-secession “Tibetan Youth Congress”; not supporting any argument or activity seeking “Tibetan independence” and splitting the region from the country.

    “They absolutely forgot to fulfill their promises,” Zhu said. “They intensified sabotage activities and continued to attack the central government.””

    I think this is what the New York Times is referring to when they state China reacted with outrage. The rhetoric from all sides is a joke, it’s pointless to keep dragging media coverage into the discussion.

  56. Hemulen Says:

    @Wukailong #31

    I think the CCP is a league of its own when it comes to hate-mongering. The Soviets wrote attack-editorials in Pravda and shot their enemies in the cellar of Lubyanka prison. But they didn’t summon the masses to the streets or subjected real and perceived enemies to public psychological torture. With the exception of the time of Moscow trials, I’m not sure that the Soviets has ever engaged in intensive hate campaigns like the ones that have been directed at DL, Lee Teng-hui or Chris Patten. This is something peculiarly CCP and we have to look for internal reasons for that. Many countries in the world have experienced foreign occupation and humuliation that surpasses anything China has been through the last 150 years, yet the PRC is a league of its own when it comes to hate-mongering, apparently with the active support of many young well-educated youth. A lot of Chinese intellectuals are deeply disturbed by the way the CCP has resurrected cultural revolution style hate mongering and the way it is affecting Chinese youth.

  57. FOARP Says:

    @Hemulen

    The Soviets ran hate campaigns against numerous people, Trotsky, Denikin, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Churchill etc. all came in for a measure of it. The attitude the CCP takes towards the Dalai Lama is not actually that extra-ordinary amongst totalitarian regimes.

  58. pug_ster Says:

    @Hemulen 56

    This so called ‘hate mongering’ from the Chinese is no different than what many Americans are angry about at anybody who are ‘Un-American.’

    I’m sorry, but when you go to China, do you see propaganda posters like ‘Death to the Dalai Lama.’ or something? You just think that the CCP magically created a bunch of Tibetan haters but most Chinese are more than capable to think for themselves without being manipulated by the government.

  59. Hemulen Says:

    @FOARP, pug_ster

    I take your points, but I have yet to see examples of state-sanctioned campaigns of mass violence against enemies on the scale we have seen in China 1949-1976 in the US and Soviet Union. Stalin was a cruel leader, but would never have started a movement like the anti-rightist campaign or the cultural revolution. We see less of that now, but I maintain it has left an ugly legacy that has yet to be dealt with. Today China is, as far as I know, one of the few countries in the world where leaders of a national stature frequently sink into using vulgar, violent and derogatory language to characterize opponents.

    when you go to China, do you see propaganda posters like ‘Death to the Dalai Lama.’ or something

    Almost anything short of that has been said.

    most Chinese are more than capable to think for themselves without being manipulated by the government.

    It is interesting though, that so many Chinese are prepared to take to the streets and repeat – verbatim – their government’s version on Tibet – attack enemies verbally and sometimes physically – and then say that they were thinking for themselves. To internalize government propaganda to that degree is the textbook definition of being indoctrinated.

  60. pug_ster Says:

    @Hemulen 59

    Somehow I do see that you have some kind of prejudice toward Chinese Leaders. Do you have any of those nasty derogatory quotes from Wen Jiabao or Hu Jintao, because I would personally like to hear them. I don’t see anything derogatory about the ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing,’ as that is a metaphor of what they describe him.

    And you don’t think the crap that we read in American, Canadian and European newspapers are not manipulated by the government. Even if there is no censorship, these newspapers and media have to adhere to what they can or can’t print, which is called propaganda.

  61. Wukailong Says:

    “And you don’t think the crap that we read in American, Canadian and European newspapers are not manipulated by the government.”

    No, not by the government as such. It’s more complicated than that. Books and magazines you buy in China are not necessary manipulated by the government either these days, but they definitely have a much higher presence.

    As for the sayings as such, I’ve already answered that: it’s not sayings such as “wolf in monk’s clothing” themselves that are wrong, it’s the aggressive propaganda. If you really believe it’s the same everywhere, then read 环球时报 and see if it’s the same thing when you compare it to the favorite “crap” of your American, Canadian or European newspaper. _Every_ issue of HQSB has something derogatory about Taiwanese leaders, and it’s nationalism, nationalism, nationalism. And oh, you find it everywhere.

  62. Ted Says:

    @ pug_ster #60: “I don’t see anything derogatory about the ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing,’ as that is a metaphor of what they describe him.”

    What do you think of this headline, “Commentary: Dalai Lama is Spewing lies”.

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/30/content_6655137.htm

  63. Wukailong Says:

    From the article mentioned above:

    “How can the violent and deadly incident that happened on March 14 be called harmony? How can a Buddhist monk who actually advocates violence be called “a man of peace”? How can a monk full of lies dare to say he values harmony?”

    😀

    “A monk full of lies”. That’s one of the best ones this year!

    As for constantly referring to him as “Dalai”, it’s kind of odd, a bit like calling the pope “Vatican” or Hu Jintao “Zong”…

  64. Michael Says:

    What can the DL and his eunuchs do? Nothing. 🙂

    The riots in Lhasa were spontaneous at best, it is no secret that the best jobs and education go to Hans, as it should be.

    The only terrorists that Tibetans contributed with was those khampas in the 50’s and the indian-tibetan police force in the 70’s which we forced the indians to stop with. Cia gave up on tibet long long time ago.

  65. pug_ster Says:

    @Wukailong 61,63 @Ted 62

    What Hemulen quoted on @59 is:

    Today China is, as far as I know, one of the few countries in the world where leaders of a national stature frequently sink into using vulgar, violent and derogatory language to characterize opponents.

    So he assumed that the national leaders in China would use derogatory language, which is false. The Chinese leaders are more reserved and leave the leave it to the Media as the attack dogs. I recall someone like Bush during the Iraq war who goes in front of the Media and calls Saddam ‘Murderous dictator.’ Countries in East or west uses some form of information dominance which is essentially propaganda.

    Besides, Dalai Lama ‘spewing lies’ is about a story about him not telling the truth, and ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ is describing him as a person who many thinks that he is a man of peace when he is not. You got any better words to describe him?

  66. Wukailong Says:

    @pug_ster: “So he assumed that the national leaders in China would use derogatory language, which is false. The Chinese leaders are more reserved and leave the leave it to the Media as the attack dogs.”

    Alright, I agree with that. Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao tend to be very civilized in their speeches and mostly talk about high-level policies. The media is a completely different thing.

    As for the other discussions, I don’t think we get much further. I just dislike polemics and black-and-white thinking, that’s all. And yes, that goes for Bush too.

  67. Wukailong Says:

    Actually, the saying used to describe DL in Chinese media is 披着袈裟的豺狼 (a jackal in monk’s clothing), and I’ve seen this several times together with the saying 人面兽心的恶魔 (a demon with human face and a beast’s heart). Perfectly normal for all media?

  68. Leo Says:

    @ Wukailong 38,

    The Taiwanese that said that has it right, at least for the moment. Taiwan is located at the doorstep of China, not US or Japan, and it is a security concern for China, not vice versa.

    So long China proper is in order, the control over Tibetan population by the central government will go on, one way or another. A central government that fails to do so will lose any credibility with the Chinese population.

    DL’s “middle way” and “meaningful autonomy” is extreme Tibetan nationalism and disguised territorial extentionalism at their best, as some serious Tibetan scholars pointed out. They are hailed by the West unanimously as some kind of best example of peace-loving and wisdom. The Chinese have reason to doubt that the Westerners are either dumb, or haboring ulterior motives.

  69. Leo Says:

    @ Wukailong 67,

    I have to say, the guy that invented these phrases are basically calling a spade spade. It is not diplomatic, but it is true. Except for Tibetan indepedence/”meaningful autonomy”, he is willing to dodge on any religious/human principles. Basically he is no different from street Hindu gurus that are ready to swindle several dollars out of you with any fantastic promises. The only difference is that it is blood and lives of several million peple at stake here with DL. But we know to irr is human, nobody is perfect, so can you move on to any substantial issues?

  70. Wukailong Says:

    @Leo: “I have to say, the guy that invented these phrases are basically calling a spade spade. It is not diplomatic, but it is true.”

    Yes, you believe in it, so you accept it as true. Unfortunately a lot of people believe in “cultural genocide” (I don’t) and believe that’s calling a spade a spade. Some people believe talking about “human rights abuses” are calling a spade a spade, but you think that’s “meddling in China’s internal affairs”. Take your pick.

    “But we know to irr is human, nobody is perfect, so can you move on to any substantial issues?”

    Substantial issues… like all the other substantial issues in this thread?

  71. Wukailong Says:

    In order to make everyone happy, though, this will be my last comment in this thread. 🙂

  72. Ted Says:

    pug_ster #65: “The Chinese leaders are more reserved and leave the leave it to the Media as the attack dogs.”

    I can’t speak for Hemulen but from my point of view, the media in China is speaking for China’s leadership so when the media uses vulgar or derogatory language the leadership uses vulgar or derogatory language. I’ll grant that different voices are emerging in the media here but if it comes from Xinhua it might as well come from the mouth of the leader himself. As you suggest, those in power don’t need to throw around heavy words or phrases because they have an entire organization making those statements for them. That’s the system here and that’s why foreigners and foreign papers associate articles like those I posted with the leaders themselves. I really didn’t understand why they would want to tack on the word “Commentary” in the title of the article I referenced in #62. For me that means we’re getting an even more candid view of the official line, the real opinion of the leadership without any of the diplomatic formalities.

    Bush speaks for Bush, maybe he can get some of his backers to author a piece in the WaPo but he doesn’t run the paper. He sure as heck doesn’t have a handle on the Times (though there was an episode with a reporter at the outset of the gulf war, I think she’s with FOX now).

  73. Steve Says:

    @pug_ster #65 & Ted #72: I’d agree with Ted. Western media’s driving force is to make a profit. The national media was for the most part, very hard on GWB and later McCain, and complimentary to BO. If the government controlled the media, it would have been the opposite. FOX news was conservative because those are the viewers who keep them profitable. They simply filled a niche in the market. Lately, MSNBC has decided to go after the opposite niche just as hard, and their profitability has risen. But the viewer has choices in what they choose to see, read or hear. If I want a non-American perspective, I just go online and get it from any country I choose.

    The driving force behind China’s media is to serve the interests of the state if it is an official paper or news agency, and for the rest it is still to make a profit but various ministries have veto power over what is allowed to be printed. Try to find a story in a mainland Chinese paper that goes after Hu or ‘grandfather’ Wen. There aren’t any. The government has complete censorship power. It’s an essential part of Communist doctrine, so no surprise. It covers TV, radio, newspapers, magazines and the net.

    So as Ted wrote, what the media says is coming directly from the government. In fact, when I used to read the papers there on a daily basis, I could tell right away which story was local and which was from the government; the phrasing and jargon, always the same jargon, made it immediately obvious. It’s like the writer has to include a certain number of words or expressions per article such as “splittist, hegemony, so-called,” etc. The expressions they use are both comical and infantile to a non-Chinese person.

  74. pug_ster Says:

    @Ted 72

    I think that many of the commentaries in China is more or less like the Op-Ed pages that you read in any newspaper. I’m sure there’s some commentary from another Chinese Editor (although there will be a few) who wants to point out that the Dalai Lama is a peace loving person who will never get his commentary published. I am not surprised because this is how propaganda works.

    Similarly, it happened here in the US also months leading to the Iraq War. There were people who were against the Iraq war and their opinions were silenced by the Media. So it works both ways.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda#Iraq__War

  75. Charles Liu Says:

    But pug, you are forgetting the #1 rule – when sh!t happens here it’s because we are free, but when sh!t happens there it’s because they are evil commie ch!nks.

    This rule is called “duplicity”. Sorry guy, just calling a spade a spade.

  76. sp Says:

    hello everyone

    I am a mainland Han Chinese, this is my first time posting here since i feel that i have a lot to say on Tibet issue.I am an engineer, so i just have some sense in solve a problem, i don’t agree with any aggressive over-night solution for any problem. and i believe this also applies to tibet issue.

    when i was young, the textbook or everything, when mentioned about tibet, tells us that tibet is our roof, they had a great history and a unique culture, the 松赞干布and 文成公主 love story, and tibet live peacefully and happily in socialism china, we are a family, and one film named Kong Fan Sen 孔繁森 impressed me a lot, it tells a story about how a Han-chinese official(援藏干部) worked full-heartedly for tibet people until death in tibet. I know some of you will say, these are clear evidence that CCP tell lies. that’s ture, but to me, it exactly gives me a good impression to tibet and the people live there, and let me feel that Han-Zang are brothers. this is my true feeling, eventhough it’s under a lie.

    don’t misinterprete my words above, actually I don’t like the government of china(here i mean, ccp, since in most cases, they are one thing), because most chinese people were also being oppressed, or even perscuted by the government, and the misery of chinese people in the political and citizen right perspective is not anywhere better than tibetans in TAR, believe me. and the situation today is much better than any time before.

    But why tibetan people feel so angry about this, per my understanding (not necessarily true, you can argue and i will be happy to hear), cultural difference and ethnic difference are not the only reasons. Most tibetan-in-exile grow up in a more free society, they are not as tolerable as those living in china’s land(i know TAR remain disputable but i just want to make it simple). ok, let’s us put this disagree aside for a while.

    I am lack of information regarding how tibet people thinking for the well-known reason, but i think most chinese have a good-will towards tibetan people, this is defintely ture, by chinese, i mean, common chinese people. many volunter groups in china are working hard to help those in rural area of tibet. Not to mention the government’s infrastructure and education initiatives(they are mostly fed by chinese taxpayer). this is obviously and sincerely for the good of Tibet people and Tibet-Han relation. I don’t think there are any conspiracy behind that. These are concrete and constructive action that aim to improve the living standard of tibetan people, right?

    I know not all people think it that way, if you don’t like a person, eventhough he gives you something, you don’t feel grateful, i think this is understandable. but what’s the ultimate goal of some of our tibet friends? what are you fighting for? freedom? the fighting for freedom kills countless people in human history. I am not paticularily support China side, in stead, i support the autonomous mode, i mean, culturally and religionly.

    As for the influx of Han-people in tibet, i think it really doesn’t matter, this is a evidence of the increased interaction with the outside world due to the improved transportation and information technologies. While tibet live in a far-away place and get influenced by Han-Chinese, there is nothing to complaint about. if a culture is lay behind by other advanced culture, they are at the risk of die out if they don’t keep studying and learning from other. I know many tibet people spend half a year just pray for the budda, i respect their religion, but this is not compitable with the morden society, people need education and industry to help the whole ethnic group become stronger, rather than encourage everyone to spend a life time in a monastry to practise religion belifs. that’s the cold fact of morden life.

    my english is not as good as most of you. so i am sorry if i made something wrong.

    to tibet friends
    I think many of you shows some difference views of tibet, i appreciate your effort and patience, and i can understand your grievance, but we are not living in a heaven where everything is perfect, so we still need to fighting with our fate, but i think we can focus more on how to make it better instead of stale on what’s right, what’s wrong, we chinese learnt it 30 years ago, and have made some improve, both economically and politically(still a long way to go), i believe that if everyone in china can get a better education and economical status, it’s the end of CCP ruling. anyway, whatever your voice, for me it’s a great chance to learn, eventhough i can’t agree with you from some point of view.

  77. TonyP4 Says:

    Hi sp, your English is same as mine, but your message is loud and clear. Thanks! Hope you continue to contribute .

  78. Steve Says:

    Hi sp, welcome to FM! Don’t worry; your English is very easy to understand and you write clearly. Your views are very thoughtful and I am sure many agree with much if not most of what you wrote. It’s good to hear from mainland Chinese since this is all taking place in your country so your perspective is very important.

    Feel free to chime in anytime you want. I’m sure you’ll receive comments from others. I very much appreciate hearing your viewpoint.

  79. bt Says:

    Sp, Hi!

    Welcome to the FM blog! I add my praises to what Tony and Steve said.
    BTW, your English is super good!

  80. Netizen K Says:

    SP,

    Just to correct your history. Princess Wencheng was a war bride. You know what a war bride was? When you were invaded and defeated by your enemy, you sent one of your female relatives to marry your enemy. That was what the Tang royal house did. Don’t believe what you read in your Tangshu: everything was peaceful and harmonious. It was not.

  81. Steve Says:

    @Netizen K: I wasn’t familiar with the story of Princess Wencheng so thanks for mentioning it. I googled it to learn more and found a good telling of the story here: http://www.wku.edu/~yuanh/China/tales/princesswencheng_b.htm and a summary at Wiki here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Wencheng

    Each story seems to put a different meaning on the origin of the marriage. I was wondering if there is more definitive source material available. It seems much of the story is apocryphal.

  82. Hongkonger Says:

    A war bride, true, she was, but as a result, she became in de facto the Peace bride.
    The Chinese Princess, Wencheng was a peace offering to the demand of the Tibetan King, Songtsen Gampo. And as a reult peace prevailed for the remainder of Songtsen Gampo’s reign.

    Peace & good will to all

  83. Netizen K Says:

    Hongkonger,

    You seem to be a nice guy. Let me give you an example.

    Let’s say, I beat you up bad. Then I said you had to let me marry your sister, or else. Then your sister married me and she was very good and pursuated me to lay up on you. And I did. Then we – me, your sister, you – all lived in peace and being good.

    That would not be that I was good. It was just that your sister did her job. You should know who you needed to be grateful for: your sister. Got it?

  84. Netizen K Says:

    Steve,

    I don’t think Haiwang Yuan’s translation was from an objective source. It was likely from a Chinese source such as Tangshu. The Tang royal house or later Chinese historians had reason to embelish this event.

    I’d trust Wikipedia more because it was from Tibetan sources:

    “After a campaign against China in 635–6 (OTA l. 607) the Chinese emperor agreed (under threat of force, according to Tibetan histories) to marry a Chinese princess to king Songtsän Gampo as part of the diplomatic settlement.”

  85. Steve Says:

    @Hongkonger: Check out the Indie thread. I have a bunch of new stuff for you to listen to, all YouTube vids.

  86. Charles Liu Says:

    Netizen K, just to show you how unreliable Wikipedia is, the wikipedia entry you cited conflicts with it’s own citation of another wiki page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Taizong%27s_campaign_against_Tufan#Conflict_in_638

    – Songtsän Gampo’s 1st request to marry a Tang princess was refused and blamed on Tuyuhun, and caused Gampo to attack Tuyuhun

    – Gampo’s 2nd request to marry a Tang princess was after his force was defeated by Tang general Niu Jinda

  87. Leo Says:

    @ Wukailong 70,

    I believe it because I followed a lot of interviews and writings by DL, and I know how he makes fancyful promises and exploit the human weaknesses from one case to another. If he was just a street Hindu guru, it will just make a joke. The tragedy is he is THE God-king.

    I can fully understand their “cultural genocide” sentiments. Any their claims are based on the point that “Tibet is a total independent country”. The Westphalian principle promises a sovereign country a lot of things, such as keeping the culture “absolute pure”, silencing the dissidents, butchering the ethnic minorities, which is what the bordering Bhutan is practising.

  88. pug_ster Says:

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6304012

    Looks like this whole week of meeting is wasted for nothing. They are going back to their ‘middle way’ while China didn’t even budge an inch.

  89. TonyP4 Says:

    Some princesses in the middle east should be sent to Bush, and Bush’s 2 daughters should be sent to some terrorists to carry on the tradition. LMSAO.

    I believe this kind of marriages has been used through out Chinese history usually before wars – you do not want to kill your FIL in theory. LOL.

    Is cultural genocide same as assimilation depending on your POV?

  90. Netizen K Says:

    Charles Liu,

    Yes, there seems to be inconsistency in terms of who won the confrontion. Chinese said they won, while Titetans said they did. But who initiated the attack was clear from various sources. The Tibetans attacked Songzhou, a frontier town under Chinese control since Qin and which now belongs to the Aba Prefecture in Sichuan Province. Now the exiles claim the Aba Prefecture as part of Greater Tibet, despite of the fact that it was part of China even before Tibet existed.

  91. xiao wang Says:

    A few thoughts:

    1: good cops and bad cops. We need more good cops from China. It is just a matter of tactics. It usually works better.

    2: Shouldn’t each individual, of all the earthlings, has a equal share of voting right in the fate of the earth and on the matter of who can has what? There should be no borders, each person should be able travel free. You can laugh at the idea, but once you say it a hundred times, and hundreds of people say it a hundred times, the idea is not laughable anymore. Who says equality has to stop at country borders? Aren’t the Tibetan buddhists the enlightened ones?

    3: Demography is destiny. Tibet will be history. China will be history. There will be asian, white, black, south asian. Then there will be human. Then there will be cockroach.

  92. xiao wang Says:

    a few thoughts:

    Good cops and bad cops. We need more chinese to play good cops. It is a matter of tactics. It usually works better.

    Should not each individual on earth has an equal say as to who can has what? Why should equality stops at nation borders. Don’t laugh at this idea. If hundreds people say it hundreds of time, it will be another inspiring I have a dream.

    Demography is destiny. Tibet will be history. China will be history. There will be asian, south asian, white, black, mutts. There will be human. There will be cockroaches.

  93. JTP Says:

    I am just curious why Miliband made this statement at this time. Any comment?

    http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/newsroom/latest-news/?view=PressS&id=8299838

  94. bt Says:

    @JTP

    Hi JTP,

    Hey, that’s politics, the reasons might not always be clear 🙂

    I am not a British citizen, and I wouldn’t like to make any mistake: if some British readers feel that I am wrong, please correct me.
    It seems that the British government wants to clarify its official position on Tibet (sounds like they were holding before a ‘unusual position’ about ‘suzerainty’ / ‘sovereignty’). The timing of the statement might be because as Allen wrote before we are probably at a crossroad for Tibet (end of the previous round of talks, meeting of the Tibetan exiles, declining health of the Dalai Lama). So, the British government wanted to make his statements clear before a new period begins.
    The preparation of a joint position of the European Union might also be an option; this is a usual way for the different governments of the Union to express their position before the European Union issues a common statement.

  95. Ted Says:

    @pug_ster # 74: “I think that many of the commentaries in China is more or less like the Op-Ed pages that you read in any newspaper.”

    Just to be clear, my comment #72 cited Xinhua specifically. With regard to commentaries from Xinhua, I don’t regard them as similar to commentaries from other newspapers.

    “Similarly, it happened here in the US also months leading to the Iraq War. There were people who were against the Iraq war and their opinions were silenced by the Media.”

    In western papers there is a mixture of people who are misled, people who do the misleading (outside) and people who see clearly within the individual papers. As Steve said, the media in the U.S. is generally after sales so if pro-invasion stories were papers in 2002 its likely because the majority of Americans were in favor of invading Iraq. As for coverage at the time, I personally think the NYTimes has too strong an activist streak and can sometimes be led astray too easily. So while the Post was talking about strategic choices, the Times was used to complain about human rights abuses. Both papers were stung by the Iraq and they have been struggling to reestablish their reputations since.

    Your phrase “Silenced by the Media” is very strong, I would say they couldn’t find a voice in the media. Maybe that seems like splitting hairs but for me its an important distinction.

    Has anyone here ever sent an email to a writer at the Washington Post? I have been writing letters since my arrival in China and I have received a response every time on issues ranging from product recalls to Iraq. The responses I have received since living in China to various emails has strengthened my underlying confidence in the western media.

    Here’s a reply I received to an email I sent on Iraq in July 2007.

    “Dear Ted,

    I’m so sorry for not responding to this e-mail earlier–somehow it got diverted to my spam folder, which I didn’t check until today.

    Perhaps now you have figured out the answer to your question. We heard about the bank heist very late on the night before the Times story ran, but it sounded fairly fishy to us, so we decided to wait a day (in accordance with the old journalists’ mantra that it’s better to be right than first). By the next day, we were glad that, unlike the Times, we waited. The amount stolen from the bank was actually $282 million Iraqi dinars, not dollars, as the Times reported. At a rough conversion rate of 125 dinars to the dollar, that means the thieves took about $225,000–not a huge sum, by bank-robbing standards. We wrote a very brief story about it the next day, but it wasn’t treated as a huge story because in our minds it wasn’t.

    As for the question about insurgency dollars vs. American ones, I don’t think it’s heartless at all–in fact, I think it’s a very important problem for American minds. I don’t claim to know any specific numbers, but I can tell you that in general insurgent groups get by on shoestring budgets compared to the U.S. operation. I think a key reason insurgencies have had so much “success” against Americans is that most of their weapons–in general, AK-47s, IEDs and some mortars/RPGs–are very cheap. AKs are not difficult to come by in Iraq, so many, many people have one, and I’ve been told (though I don’t know for sure) that one can be had for ~$100. As for IEDs, they are largely made from household items: a discarded cell phone, a washing machine timer, a calculator/egg timer, etc. plus some explosives. A functional IED that will kill people in range can be made very inexpensively. Clearly mortars and RPGs cost significantly more, which is why the majority of deaths in Iraq are from IEDs/roadside bombs. Even car bombs aren’t too pricey if you’re willing to sacrifice the car.

    Like I said, this is a huge problem for the Americans, who are using multimillion-dollar equipment and getting killed by devices costing $50 or less. For an established military there are clearly ethical issues with building their own IEDs and burying them in the street, but in fighting an insurgency that’s what you come up against.

    Sorry I don’t have a clear answer–as with most things in Iraq, clear answers are few and far between!

    Best,
    Megan

    Megan Greenwell
    Baghdad correspondent, The Washington Post”

  96. shel Says:

    Imagine idividual can claim land that belong to their ancestor, how this world will looks like? I am a Malaysian Hakka, can I claiim part of kwangtung province that my great great granfather left behind, or even Nothern China where his great great grand father came from, so that I can live comfortably with a few ten of acres of land for these connection. Can the African American use technique of DNA to claim the land of their ancester in Africa. Will the American white leave USA for europe so the native american can have all the ranches now belonging to the white man? Will the Australian white leave to up hold their idea of aboriginal right? Will the Japanese leave Ryukyu island for the Ryukyu people? How about returning Marvinas to the Argentinian? How about giving land in Asia, Africa Europe to the american no matter how ugly they are because their ancestor came from these places?

  97. pug_ster Says:

    @Ted 94

    Just because a reporter responded to your e-mail, doesn’t mean that they are truthful, as they have a job to do as a reporter. If you don’t think that the US government doesn’t have a propaganda arm, you’re wrong, just google Broadcasting Board of Governors. Some of the broadcasting organizations that they operate are Voice of America, Alhurra, and Radio Free Asia. This is the kind of stuff that is censored in China. Go to any news site, like abcnews.com and search radio free asia and these organizations like these frequently quoted from that organization as a credible source. I bet 95% of the Americans don’t know what these organizations are and they bend and told the story as they please.

    To give you the latest kind of garbage of the kind of China bashing that you read nowadays, I see this article.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=6298414

    The thing is that the story could not give one example of any details of some information was stolen by the Chinese. I’m sorry, but stories like these are nothing but fear mongering, and loathing towards the Chinese and this is the kind of propaganda that is under our noses.

  98. Krishna Says:

    I am an Indian. India’s next generation have and will always hate China for what they did with not only Tibet but India itself. Mao Zedong back-stabbed us. Both India and China are growing in might.
    As I have seen, there is a great interest in the new generation of Indians to liberate Tibet from PRC. May it be through war or peace, we are ready. We are ready to put our lives on the line for Tibetian cause or for the cause of humanity!
    It might not happen tommorow or the day after but when it does happen we will make sure there only one result. “A free Tibet”
    I can guarantee all of Tibetians that we have always been by you and will always be there if the need arises!
    Chinese are not the kind of people who understand by peaceful ways! We will make sure they do comeback to earth!
    Fight for Tibet is not just a bilateral issue! It’s fight for rights, recognition and its a fight for Humanity! We dont care what UK, US or even Russia believe. Our stand with the Tibetians and their cause will be forever.

  99. Michael Says:

    @Krishna

    I love Indians, always full of hot air and never do anything. How many medals did you win in Beijing? 1? Even poor african countries won more medals than you, as usual. Can you even do basic stuff like building descent roads around your country? I think not.

    As for might, you guys import everything, even handguns. 🙂 And don’t forget, we gave you a humiliating blow in 1962 and we can do it again. The only liberation taking place is going to be China when we liberate southern tibet from you. Why? Cuz we have the will, brains, numbers, infrastructure and technology.

  100. Raj Says:

    The BBC reports on the result of the talks.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7743480.stm

    Tibetans back Dalai Lama on China

    Tibetan exiles meeting in India have agreed to back the Dalai Lama’s policy of seeking autonomy, rather than full independence, from China.

    But the decision to support the Tibetan spiritual leader’s approach to continue talks with Beijing was viewed as conditional on progress being made.

    The Dalai Lama himself recently said he feared talks with China had reached a dead end.

    Some Tibetans have indicated that they support pressing for full independence.

    Under the Dalai Lama’s so-called “Middle Way” approach, Tibetans would essentially stop pushing for the re-establishment of Tibet as an independent nation.

    —–

    So China cannot claim the Dalai Lama is seeking independence. Or will it try to claim that is his real motivation so it can avoid putting anything substantial down in return?

    ++++

    99. Michael, responding to trolls/people who are more passionate than sensible with a troll comment mocking another country makes you no better than him. There was a time when China was not that well off so gloating that India currently has further to travel is rather disgusting. I certainly wouldn’t use the result of a conflict from 45 years ago to indicate that you’re stronger than your neighbour.

    Plus anyone who thinks the number of gold medals won at the Olympics is a sign of a country being good/bad really needs to get some perspective. Russia used to win lots of medals during the Cold War – does that mean it was the second “best” place in the world? Or when the UK won just one gold medal at Atlanta 1996 did that mean we were a “bad” country?

    I love Indians, always full of hot air and never do anything.

    Many people say the same about Chinese – big on threats, small on trousers.

  101. shel Says:

    Western media definitely use lies to fool the naive people, Raj is just one such fool brainwashed by these media. One simple fact is Dalai Lama is just a small fry in Buddhism, representing say not more than a million followers. But this guy was painted as the highest priest in these ancient religion practiced in most of Asia, with billions of Buddhist. They even pretend to feel surprise Dalai Lama was not given the position to head Bhuddist organization in Asia. If this is not lying I don’t know what is.

  102. TonyP4 Says:

    Kristna, it seems you’re covering the entire sky with one hand – a Chinese saying. I’ve a lot of this generation’s Indian friends and they do not have any of your hatred toward Chinese. I suspect you could be 12 years old and influenced badly by TV or you’ve the dumbest nationalism. I do not know your interest and/or Indian interest to ‘liberate Tibet’, which in reality is not possible.

    Indians are doing great recently with their space program and fighting the pirates. Living standard in India is a lot worse than China and the worst is she cannot control the population. They have a lot of work to improve their current situation. Your Tier I cities are at least 5 years behind our Tier II cities. Just Google ‘China India’ and use the raw data to compare. Even the one with the dumbest nationalism will tell you how behind you’re.

    Most Indians in US have professional jobs via the H1 Visa, so they’re doing great compared to Chinese with the majority of the last generation are refugees. So, I can tell you Indians are not dumb, but your government (or your culture) does not let you prosper in India. If Indians understand their basic problems and spend the effort instead of spreading hatred on sth that is none of your business, I do think India will catch up FAST.

    I respect your culture, people and civilization. Hope one bad apple will not change my opinions. Without your hatred writing and something similar, the two countries will have a better relationship.

  103. DJ Says:

    @ Krishna,

    Welcome to this blog. Please read a bit more of the patterns and tones of discussions in this site and you probably will find that we always encourage different viewpoints to be shared and argued over but in respectful manners. Your comment #98 is frankly a case of trolling. I hope this is the end of it.

    @ Michael

    I don’t always agree with Raj, but he is right that responding to a troll that way is not exactly needed.

  104. m.wolfe68 Says:

    “Krishna” is NOT Idian in all likelihood. Michael’s response is an indication of how much raw prejudice there are on both sides – all sides.

    As I recall, the Indian government stopped the exile protesters from marching towards the Chinese border.

  105. Michael Says:

    @Raj

    You cannot compare india to China. That is like comparing America to Mexico. 🙂

    I know a little bit about india to know that:

    1. 30 years of planning and you do not even have a descent fighter plane or tank in full production that actually works.

    2. All east asian countries have progressed in less than 20 years, while india after 60 years is not even close. Sick man of asia perhaps?

    3. Historically indians are poor soldiers since every small invader conquered you so easily, a british company conquring a whole country is really special. 🙂 If you want to boast about winning over pakistan then that does not count, you are the same race. 🙂

    4. Your fighter fleet is obsolete and you loose hundreds of fighter planes- who needs to attack india 🙂

    5. Your navyy fleet is obsolete and cannot protect your own borders.

    6. Your political leadership is weak and submissive towards China. We thank you for keeping the DL quite. 🙂

    7. 45 years or not, we can still easily crush you since you are poor , obsolete and inceompetent fighters.

    8. You can visit China yourself and see how advanced we are compared to your poor country.

  106. Ted Says:

    @pug_ster #97: “Just because a reporter responded to your e-mail, doesn’t mean that they are truthful, as they have a job to do as a reporter.”

    I’m unclear on your meaning here. My opinion is based on the substance of a reply, not the simple fact that they replied.

    “If you don’t think that the US government doesn’t have a propaganda arm, you’re wrong, just google Broadcasting Board of Governors.”

    I haven’t stated or suggested the US government doesn’t have a propaganda arm. From my previous comment: “In western papers there is a mixture of people who are misled, people who do the misleading (outside) and people who see clearly within the individual papers.” When I say “outside” I mean that, in my opinion they are not advancing journalism, they are advancing outside interests. I do believe that there is journalism for the sake of journalism in the US. I also believe it is emerging in China.

    “I bet 95% of the Americans don’t know what these organizations are and they bend and told the story as they please.”

    Your probably right that the average American doesn’t know these organizations by name but I think anyone with a decent education would acknowledge they exist and if you put an example in front of them many would agree that there is a lot of spin in the stories. Americans, like everyone else, are selectively lazy when deciding when to scrutinize a source of information. Everyone chooses not to question certain things but back home we are reminded that we should question our sources from time to time. For example: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/washington/20generals.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=pentagon%20nbc&st=cse&oref=slogin

    I think this is great journalism. The value of this report is that it reminds a huge swath of people that we were lazy and we have to keep an eye on our government. The day I see a report like from Xinhua will be an interesting day indeed.

    Does this article fall into the same category as that in your previous post? Do you consider this China bashing? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/washington/10spy.html?scp=3&sq=chinese%20espionage&st=cse

  107. Michael Says:

    @ Raj

    What is more disgusting than seeing such poverty and misery in your own country? I mean, your people are so proud that you have 50% literacy after 60 years! 🙂

    Isn’t it more disgusting that your people want to copy the white man, your former masters,,. You use skin whitening cream, desperate to learn western education, culture and poor english. Your country is artificial from 1947 and you have no real history except what the white mans education tells you 🙂

    Look at Singapore- a city state paradise made by Chinese. And let’s look at say… Fiji- lots of Indians with a poor economy and your indian government there was overthrown by 20 terrorists. 🙂 So even abroad you cannot manage that well.

    Besides, Chinese don’t care about india. We want to compare against Japan and America. You guys just want to compare against us, me thinks you have very low ambitions. 🙂

  108. Ted Says:

    @pug_ster #97: “Just because a reporter responded to your e-mail, doesn’t mean that they are truthful, as they have a job to do as a reporter.”

    I’m unclear on your meaning here. My opinion is based on the substance of a reply, not the simple fact that they replied.

    “If you don’t think that the US government doesn’t have a propaganda arm, you’re wrong, just google Broadcasting Board of Governors.”

    I haven’t stated or suggested the US government doesn’t have a propaganda arm. From my previous comment: “In western papers there is a mixture of people who are misled, people who do the misleading (outside) and people who see clearly within the individual papers.” When I say “outside” I mean that, in my opinion they are not advancing journalism, they are advancing outside interests. I do believe that there is journalism for the sake of journalism in the US. I also believe it is emerging in China.

    “I bet 95% of the Americans don’t know what these organizations are and they bend and told the story as they please.”

    You’re probably right that the average American doesn’t know these organizations by name but I think any American with a decent education would acknowledge they exist and if you put an example in front of them many would agree that there is a lot of spin in the stories. Americans, like everyone else, are selectively lazy when deciding when to scrutinize a source of information. Everyone chooses not to question certain things but back home we are reminded that we should question our sources from time to time. For example, the April 20th 2008 NY Times article: “Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon’s Hidden Hand”.

    I thought that was great journalism. The value of the report was that it told a huge swath of people that we were getting lazy and we can’t forget that have to keep an eye on our government. The day I see a report like from Xinhua will be an interesting day.

    “To give you the latest kind of garbage of the kind of China bashing that you read nowadays, I see this article… The thing is that the story could not give one example of any details of some information was stolen by the Chinese.”

    The story you mention cites a congressional commission. Google the name of the Commission itself and you can find an extensive and mind numbing report with the examples you’re looking for. Does the July 10th New York Times article “Spy Cases Raise Concern on China’s Intentions” article fall into the same category as that in your previous post? Do you consider this China bashing? I have to say that as a foreigner living in China it gets tiring reading about unrest around the world while China itself is presented as largely trouble free economic and social paradise. Maybe as my Chinese improves and I can move away from the English language papers I will see more nuanced local coverage, but the English language papers are excruciating to read.

    @admin: I had trouble when posting with the links, sorry if this appears more than once.

  109. Raj Says:

    Michael

    You cannot compare india to China. That is like comparing America to Mexico.

    No, I’d say the two are much closer than that. Or perhaps you are correct but in some ways the two are reversed – the USA doesn’t take lessons from Mexico on matters of rule of law, human rights, democracy and the rest.

    30 years of planning and you do not even have a descent fighter plane or tank in full production that actually works.

    Eurofighter, Challenger 2?

    All east asian countries have progressed in less than 20 years, while india after 60 years is not even close. Sick man of asia perhaps?

    India isn’t in East Asia – it’s in South Asia. It has done a lot better than Pakistan, for example. As for East Asia, you may want to question why China is more backward than your neighbours like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

    Historically indians are poor soldiers since every small invader conquered you so easily, a british company conquring a whole country is really special.

    Except that the British company had an army at its disposal. Did you forget that? As for their fighting quality, if it hadn’t been for the loyal Sikh soldiers, who were exceptional fighters, we would have been kicked out of India during the various mutinies.

    Your navyy fleet is obsolete and cannot protect your own borders.

    Ah, so China has evolved past the Type 45 destroyer already? 😀

    we can still easily crush you since you are poor , obsolete and inceompetent fighters.

    Lol, I’m sure China’s modern Ipod-playing, TV-watching youth will conquer all! No, wait a minute you’ll get the poor, ill-educated peasants to do your fighting for you.

    You can visit China yourself and see how advanced we are compared to your poor country.

    Funny, why is it then that Chinese people keep trying to sneak into my country but not the other way around?

    What is more disgusting than seeing such poverty and misery in your own country? I mean, your people are so proud that you have 50% literacy after 60 years!

    My people are very proud that we currently have 99% literacy. Get your facts right, old bean. 😉

    Isn’t it more disgusting that your people want to copy the white man, your former masters,,. You use skin whitening cream, desperate to learn western education, culture and poor english.

    Sounds like China to me. Pot calling kettle black. 😉

    Look at Singapore- a city state paradise made by Chinese.

    Actually, made by the British – like Hong Kong. If it hadn’t been for us you wouldn’t have got any ideas about building modern cities in the first place.

    You guys just want to compare against us, me thinks you have very low ambitions.

    When Britain builds a mock traditional village somewhere as a “model community” let me know. Until then I’d say the opposite is true, though you’re probably setting your sights way too high.

    By the way, if the penny still hasn’t dropped, suffice to say that I’ve said many times Raj isn’t my real name.

  110. Ted Says:

    @Raj #109: LOL 🙂

  111. TonyP4 Says:

    Hi folks, loosen up.

    We’re proud of being a Chinese or an Indian. Kristna is a Tibetan exile who wants to spread hatred (this thread is interesting to Tibetans). Do not fall into the trap. Kristna, if you’re a 12 year old as I suspected, get off from your parent’s PC, or I’ll call your ma. 🙂 & :(.

    Most Indians do not like Tibet exiles. They even talk about sending them from India to USA from my secret source. 🙂 The exiles want it as it is the best place to collect the generous welfare from the bailout-happy Americans (the whole world call them ugly and now STUPID). 🙂 They do not allow Hollywood to make movies about Tibet in their own country. They want to be friend with Chinese to improve the trade. They do not want Chinese to divert the water flow…

    They have their problems and we have ours. Indians like to compare to Chinese – Google to verify. Some Indians do this as a full-time job. It appears to help as they have similar population size, but they are very different. The biggest one is Indians are with the loser, Russia, too long.

    For the British lover, I can tell you HK’s prosperous society is built by Chinese with its special location. Britons did provide a stable political society and fixed the corruption problem of HK, that China should take note. Here is something I wrote a while ago for fun.

    ———
    Hi, my name is Boris

    I’m the mayor of London. If I look familiar to you, it is because I was in the closing ceremony in the Beijing Olympic. I have a confession.

    I had two dozens of the great Chinese beer and our famous opium before the ceremony (luckily they did not test me for drug). That’s why I looked like a happy child and the flag was so heavy to wave when it was passed to me.

    I did not button my jacket, as it was too hot for my big belly. By the way, I picked up the jacket from the flea market. It is a little big, but the price is right.

    If you found any grammatical mistake in this confession, it is because I just barely passed high school.

    If you asked me why I am the mayor of London, you have to ask why my brother-in-law, a janitor in London, was the governor of Hong Kong.

    How many Briton can make all Britons ugly and stupid in 8 minutes? I’m the only one and for that I should get a gold medal.

  112. skylight Says:

    @admin: This is a request to highlight Rajs comment above (#109). 😉

  113. Michael Says:

    @Raj

    I really like the fact that your primiminister is begging China for bailout money during financial crisis 😉 Soon your country cannot survive without china. 🙂

  114. admin Says:

    I just made this thread unsticky since the special conference in Dharamsala has concluded. Personally, I am happy to see the Dalai Lama called for “a dialogue with the Chinese people.” Let’s see what concrete actions will be taken.

    As for a few trolls who visit our site occasionally, they are most likely attention seekers. I think the best strategy is to leave them alone. We never ban people or censor their comments (except removing profane and obscene language) and most people here enjoy a civilized debate.

  115. pug_ster Says:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7415525.stm

    Just found this link about the various factions that are for/against the Dalai Lama. Those guys who worship the Dorje Shugden are even bigger than the so called ‘pro-China nationalists.’ The Dalai Lama’s cause for an independent tibet is a dying cause. UK is now recognizing China sovereignty over Tibet. Bush is choosing to kissing up to president Hu because they can provide US for the bailout. Maoists have taken over Nepal. India is seeing Tibetan Exile in government more as a nuisance than a cause. To China, the situation in Tibet is minor compared to the economic, political and social problems in the rest of China. The Dalai Lama and their Tibetans in Exiles can choose to be part of China’s problem or part of their solution.

  116. shane9219 Says:

    @admin

    I support your effort to put more moderation on this thread. I think the purpose of this public media is to enhance mutal understanding through shaing different POVs, not to enlarge any perceived gulf.

    @Michael

    Your POVs are taken. However, chest poping will not make anyone stronger, being modest does not make them weaker.

    Modesty is a well-honored virtue among Chinese people. China has come a long way from its backwardness and deep poverty, having a good sense of itself is one of the legacy that we must keep. China is not US, if thousands years of history is any indication.

  117. shane9219 Says:

    I made similar post on the other discussion thread. It seems this is a more appropriate place. So it goes.

    ———————————

    I am not so surprised that DL and Tibetan-in-exile community announced their intention to stick with “The Middle Way” approach. DL further warned his supportors about the need to be more cautious on future strategies. DL is certain right on this, if his past history is any indication.

    1) In 60s, he fought a bloody war with help from CIA. That undermined the crediblity of his later peaceful approach.

    2) In 90s, he dropped off then on-going talks with Chinese Central Government after the fall of Soviet Union, citing he had no intention to talk with a failing reign. That undermined his accussation on Chinese Government’s intention of waiting him to die. DL certainly has yet to learn a lesson on this. His recently remarks indicated his hope on Chinese people. DL needs to realize that any government in China has to act on the collective mandate from its people, which is to protect its own terrirtorial integrity.

    3) In 2008 Olympics, those coordinated events around the world with the unrest in Tibet failed to produce any positive result. Mis-information on the killing of hundreds and thousands of Tibetan following 3-14 event undermined innocent goodwills from people outside China.

    So where DL and his exile government can go from here. Let’s share some thoughts together,

    1. Tibetan-in-exile has a small population with an oversized, influential spiritual leader. Tibetan-in-exile government has no standing in the world, and does not control a single piece of land. No legitimate government in the world would be willing to enter a talk with such entity on an equal footing. DL needs to act on the best interest of Tibetan people, and enter a private talk with Chinese Government with the aim to return to Tibet without carrying any political title. Tibetan-in-exile government can then be converted into Tibetan Refugee Council and conducts its own talk with Chinese Government with the aim to repatriate Tibetan-in-exile if they choose so.

    2. DL needs to formally declare China’s historical sovereignty over Tibet, and promise not to take any action in the future to undermine such sovereignty,

    3. DL can start a consultation process with Chinese Government on his proposal of establishing a central entity to coordinate Tibetan affair. Chinese Government has not yet completely rejected this initiative, only saying it is a matter of law and a consultation process with Chinese people is necessary

  118. Michael Says:

    @Shane

    And you’re from Taiwan? The ones who lost the war… 🙂

  119. Raj Says:

    Michael, I like the way you made a complete U-turn whilst pretending you didn’t make a complete idiot out of yourself. You’d make an excellent politician.

  120. BMY Says:

    @Raj,

    Is “Michael” your second screen name?:)

  121. snow Says:

    Raj

    #109 “My people are very proud that we currently have 99% literacy. Get your facts right, old bean. ”

    Please check this:
    “Now there are about 1,000,000,000 illiterates in the world, out of which about 400,000,000 live in India. This means that there are 450,000,000 literates (52%) in India, who can read and write. Shall we produce evangelical literature and reach them with the Gospel? “http://www.agapeindia.com/india_literacy.htm

    and

    “As per 2001 Census, the overall literacy rate of India is 65.38%. The male literacy rate is 75.96% and female literacy rate is 54.28%.” http://www.iloveindia.com/population-of-india/literacy-rate.html

    Which one is the fact?

  122. admin Says:

    @snow,

    Raj is not an Indian. He was talking about the UK.

  123. TonyP4 Says:

    China 91% and India 61% literacy rate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

  124. FOARP Says:

    @Tony P4 – Congratulations, this means that China has now reached the point that most Western European and North American countries were at at the beginning of the last century, but I suppose this won’t stop you attempting to mock India for being where China was in the eighties.

    @All – “The Raj” was the name for the British rule over India – this is where Raj gets his name from. Raj is one of those people from the UK who at least half-way pretends that the British Empire still exists, best if you think of him as a UK version of a 愤青. This is not to say that there aren’t plenty of things which he says that I agree with, its just his world-view that I find a bit odd.

  125. FOARP Says:

    @TonyP4 – I voted for Boris Johnson and was happy to see him win, and even more happy that ‘Red Ken’ Livingstone was kicked out. To be frank, most British people, even those who don’t agree with his political views, were rather happy to see him making fun of the Beijing Olympics. It seems to me that anyone who thinks there is some kind of insult in not buttoning up your jacket at a major event needs their heads examining. Ugliness is not displayed in a relaxed attitude, but can be shown in over-weaning pride.

  126. TonyP4 Says:

    FOARP, loosen up. I just reported an event with no bias and no political statement. It is the joke of the century with the contrast of the Chinese guy all dressed up and all the hair combed neatly. It is no insult not to button but do you find him funny exposing his big belly, his beautiful hair flying around, and looking like one having 2 drinks too much. I just laughed so hard I almost died. It inspired me to relate the janitor of London to the former governor of HK – that’s funny too. 🙂

    I just settle the argument of the literacy rate with NO statement at all. U have to be biased and draw any conclusion you want your world to believe. Haha.

  127. Steve Says:

    @FOARP & TonyP4: Tell you what, let’s just say that Boris Johnson not caring that much about his appearance and having a good time there was a lot of fun and made everyone smile and yes, it was funny to see him. I laughed and liked him at the same time, so we’ll call it a truce, ok?

    When I saw that double decker bus, all I could think of was “The Magic Bus” by The Who. That made me think of The Who’s “Live at Leeds”, one of the best live albums ever!

    So TonyP4, if you are one of the illiterate 9%, does that mean you sign your name with an “X”? Do you have one of those clever programs where you talk and it types? Wow, anytime anyone criticizes you, just say it was the program’s fault, not yours. You’ll never be misunderstood again. Or you can just imitate O. Wilde, G.B. Shaw and J. Whistler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-4UL9_bZFQ

  128. Raj Says:

    FOARP, I’m sorry that you have such a predictable and shallow view of why I would choose a handle like that. Of course it never crossed your mind that I might see the period as a bitter-sweet moment of British history, something to see as having a number of positive spin-offs and yet at the same time be terribly ashamed of. Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh’s speech in 2005 summed that up quite well in my view. I doubt you even read it. The end of the Empire was a necessity for both the UK and its colonies, though it probably could have happened a lot better had there been more will to impliment self-rule earlier on. But that’s another story.

    By the way, I’m sure everyone here knows what “fenqing” means. There’s no need to patronise them by using Chinese characters – this is an English-language blog after all.

    As for your allegation, you’re way off the mark. fenqing, for one thing, are notorious in the way they label and bully those they don’t agree with. They also rarely criticise their own government, whereas I’ve made it clear I support the Conservatives.

    Now ironically you’re demonstrating a classic f-q trait by trying to undermine me in front of third parties. Perhaps you could do with taking the log out of your own eye before you complain about the speck in mine.

  129. shel Says:

    Is FQ equivalent to red neck? Or Hindi extremist who call every chinese a commie?

  130. Steve Says:

    @shel: This is Wiki’s take on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenqing

  131. Hongkonger Says:

    @Steve, I thought the whole metro mime and dance sequence and then the “The Magic Bus,” with “a whole lotta love,’ was the best part of the closing ceremony. It felt kinda retro, reminded me of Westside Story, the Who and Beatles for some reason – would have been great if Robert Plant did the vocal with Page. Olympic London should be one hell of a spectacular rock concert~!

    @TonyP4, I have always enjoyed your jokes. Do Keep them coming. Cheers.

  132. Steve Says:

    @Hongkonger: Ok, you gotta watch this; Nina Persson of the Cardigans singing “Whole Lotta Love” at a Zeppelin tribute. Now I love Nina Persson but… “I’m gonna give you every INCH of my love”???? 😛

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAnnCQqRNUM&feature=related

    Watch the Zeppelin guys in the front row cracking up while listening to her.

  133. bt Says:

    @ Shel

    I wouldn’t say red neck for an equivalent of FQ … red neck is more just like an ignorant living in the middle of nowwhere.

    BTW, please take care of the words. Hindi is one of the languages of India, Hindu is a religion and the nationality is Indian.

  134. TonyP4 Says:

    My entire comment #123:

    “China 91% and India 61% literacy rate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

    The comment #124:
    @Tony P4 – Congratulations, this means that China has now reached the point that most Western European and North American countries were at at the beginning of the last century, but I suppose this won’t stop you attempting to mock India for being where China was in the eighties.”

    I defended Indians more than criticized them in all my posts. Why I would write something like ‘won’t stop you attempting to mock India” .

    Did you find the message “I wrote for FUN.” for the satire piece for Boris?

    I never said “black is lazy.”
    Hi Admin, is there an easy way search for the above phrase in all my comments? Actually very seldom I mentioned black.

    I’m in IT and my ideas could be quite different from the history, political science folks. I believe everything happens for a reason with the following examples. Why China economy leaps so fast. Why China has so many QC problems in food and toys. Why US is so rich…

    Why black is not first-class citizen judging from the high % in prison population and welfare recipients. I do not share the reason here. If you’re not in US for long, it is hard to explain it – cannot explain winter stuffs to summer insects.

  135. admin Says:

    @TonyP4,

    If you sign in, you can search all comments from the comment management section.

  136. loten namling Says:

    chinese leaders are cowards unable to face the real situation.
    the fact that tibet was an independent state is indisputable. but the future of tibet wether good or bad lies in the hands of the chinese. therefore china must stop playing games and agree with points laid by the dalai lama. the dalai lama trusts the world community and therefore has declared infront of the world not to fight for an independent tibet but to live within the constitution of the prc. if the chinese govt still doesnt believe in his holiness , but rather keep on blaming the dalai lama for being anti chinese, than i truely believe that the heads of chinese govt are bunch of not just crooks but psycos to be dumbed in psychiatric clinics. its a weird dream of being in a psychiatric hospital. hey wake up chinese common people dont be stupid…….

  137. hug Says:

    Personally, I can not accept the requirements of Dalai Lama, such as Great Tibet. Qinghai Province was founded in 1929, Xikang Province was founded in 1939. Tibet is bigger than it was before 1950. So his requiements are unpractical.
    I strongly support Chinese Gov.

  138. loten namling Says:

    mr hug,
    are u stupid or u have full of communist party shits in your head.
    dalai lama is not talking of greater tibet.
    we are just saying we need an autonomy within the constition of china.
    i think u chinese are pitable chimps or goats who are lead around easily by your selfish leaders…

  139. Wukailong Says:

    @loten namling: Try to keep a respectable tone here even when you strongly disagree with others’ viewpoints. We’re here to discuss, not to call each other names.

  140. loten namling Says:

    i am not a type who calls others with names.
    but enough with these people. they dont seem to want to under stand anything except only the communist propaganda. my move was to shake thier heads. sometimes you need that. some of the statements made here are not discussion but purly probaganda statements, stuffs which doest have any substantial ground for a meaningful discussion. we heard them million times again and again.

    let me tell you a story.
    i once worked in a bar in bern. that time i had just finished my german language class.weeks later my friends from the same class came to the bar to visit me. they had brougth along a fresh young chinese girl from beijing who had come to learn german also in the same class. my friends wanted to introduce the young girl from china to me. so moment they entered the bar, the lady from china covered her nose and said to me YOU STINK,YOU UNGRATEFUL TIBETAN. firstly we were ateleast two meters away from each other. how could she smell my body adour. i was shocked and my friends having heard that they all just disappeared…and then she continued showering so many coments on me RACISTS AND USUAL CHINESE PROPAGANDA stuffs. i took it cool and i introduced myself to her as LOTEN and offered her a drink. she was still showering the same stuff again and again. i let her speak till she got exaushted. i asked her if that was all.
    i told her she should now listen to my version. so i told her my story. ….. in the middle of my conversation, she told me LOTEN I AM REALLY SORRY FOR WHAT I SAID. ITS MY FIRST TIME TO TALK TO A TIBETAN. I DIDNT KNOW ALL THIS THAT YOU TOLD ME. WHAT I TOLD YOU WAS …WHAT I LEARNED IN MY SCHOOL BOOKS ABOUT TIBET. later on we became best friends. she often visited me in the bar.she even invited me to come to beijing and told me that her parents own a HOTEL. i told her that would happen only if we gain our freedom
    so point is that, there are millions of such girls and boys in CHINA who wrongly given such informations on tibet. the chinese authorities are misusing the sentiments of these young men and women to fulfill their own gains.
    i wish we could meet and have open discussion so that such doubts will be cleared…SO THAT TIBETANS AND CHINESE PEOPLE WILL LIVE IN HARMONY. FREEE TIBEt!!!!!!!!

  141. Wukailong Says:

    Thanks for your answer! Yeah, people learn a lot of things in school about “the evil slave owner Dalai Lama” and all that. I’m sorry to hear about your negative experience, but also happy that it was cleared up in the end. I hope we can have open discussions here… 😉

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