Oct 06

(Letter) Open Letter to David Kilgour and David Matas on Falun Gong and Organ Harvesting

Written by guest on Monday, October 6th, 2008 at 11:12 am
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(Backgournder on David Kilgour, David Matas, and their affiliation with Falun Gong\’s political lobby, CIPFG.)

Dear Mr. Kilgour, Mr. Matas:

While China’s human rights record should be examined, I would like to urge you to look into all the facts of the case regarding the organ harvesting allegation made by the relgious sect Falun Gong.

In my opinion Falun Gong’s actions not only discredited their own cause, they also detracted from honest examination of China’s problems. Falun Gong’s vivisection indictment muddled the rational discussion of issues such as Chinese society’s moral, ethical standards on dignity and treatment of the condemned.

It is in this spirit I would like to bring to your attention some contrarian facts:

– US State Department’s undercover investigation found Falun Gong’s Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation not credible. [1]

– A US Congressional brief critical of China questioned the veracity of Falun Gong’s claim of genocide and credibility of Kilgour/Matas report. [2]

– Independent investigation by long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu found Falun Gong’s claim, and its witnesses, unverifiable. [3]

– The Ottawa Citizen published a report on the veracity of Falun Gong’s organ harvesting allegation, and credibility of the Kilgour report. [4]

– The gory photo admitted as evidence by Falun Gong is not evidence of vivisection. Specifically, photo of Mr. Wang Bin in the Kilgour/Matas report, Appendix 20 Case 1.

A pathologist review contradicted Falun Gong’s claim. [5] Even according to Falun Gong’s own reporting, an autopsy was performed as part of Mr. Wang’s murder investigation held by local authority. [6]

Another photo that is widely mis-used by Falun Gong is of Mr. Liu Yufeng, it too does not prove vivisection.

In reality these photos are medical in nature, and are not evidence of atrocity. For example Falun Gong used a photo of breast cancer to support their “sexual torture” allegation. This story ran for two years before a physician blogger noticed the misrepresentation. [7]

In conclusion, writing an allegory of “Schindler’s List” is not the way to examine China’s human rights record. If we can not be precise with our accusation, only resort of nefarious indictment – why should anyone take the issue seriously?


Charles Liu
Community Activist
Seattle, WA


1) http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)

2) \’The Collateral of Suppression\’, a brief written for Senator Dianne Feinstein, member of US Congressional Executive Commission on China (CECC), where congressional researchers Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum were quoted.


4) http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3 (page 3, 4)

5) Review by Dr. Friedlander of Kansas City University School of Medicine, Pathology Dept. The photo exhibited ‘Y’ incisions in the neck and baseball stitch sutures, which are typical of autopsy. The fact organ removal by medical examiner during autopsy is routine, is omitted.

6) http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html

7) Review by Dr. Ramana: http://rambodoc.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/is-the-falun-gong-going-wrong

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67 Responses to “(Letter) Open Letter to David Kilgour and David Matas on Falun Gong and Organ Harvesting”

  1. bio99 Says:

    very funny. just read this: http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2436

  2. FOARP Says:

    Oh god! Look, Charles, none of those blogs you started on this topic had much success – don’t you think that that shows that there isn’t much interest in conspiracy theories of this type? What’s more – what is a ‘community activist’? Is it the same as a ‘community worker’? Will we see you run for the democratic nomination in a few years time? What is the pay like for ‘community activists’? Good? Where do you sign on to become one? Which ‘community’ do you represent? You can see I’m all questions here.

    Note to admin – do you really want your website to be hi-jacked in this fashion? Especially given that none of the content of this post is new or contributes in anyway to the stated objectives of this blog?

  3. bio99 Says:

    Legitimate question. Especially when anyone who now supports people like Liu is really going to have egg on their face when the mainstream wakes up to this question of 41,500 missing organs, and a mountain of evidence pointing to exactly where they came from.

    May help to read Gutmann’s discussion: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/986himak.asp — he mentions the organ harvesting evidence and talks about the issue of Falun Gong practitioners being persecuted.

  4. Bob Says:

    FOARP, the reason it has not generated much interest may be because FLG is too much of a trashy cult that overwhelming majority of people despise.

    Nonetheless, kudos to Charles for his tireless campaign exposing FLG and the lies spewed by its practitioners and apologists.

  5. Mathew Dillon Says:

    Until the ruling Communist Party in China allows open debate on the merits of the persecution of Falun Gong in China and their charges against the CCP to be discussed openly in China, the rational assumption has to be the CCP is hiding something and therefore nothing the CCP says is to be believed since regardless of what the “truth” is, the claims of the CCP must be accepted as a matter of law within China. There are no credibility tests allowed.
    Outside of China, at least where the power of Chinese consulates and its economic coercion is still limited, we can give a hearing to both sides on this issue and other issues including oppressive censorship, political persecution, Tibet, the corrupt builders of schools in earthquake zones, government complicity in the poisoning of infants, slave child labor in brick factories, and the general persecution of all religions that consider their God and prophets to be more deserving of loyalty than that of the godless CCP. Until the CCP allows real debate, the only position intelligent people can take is that the search for truth is pointless and facts are irrelevant to the CCP and therefore nothing coming from their state controlled press can be believed.
    Unfortunately almost all the charges of independent groups against China regarding respect for human rights, safety or happiness have turned out to be generally true and in very many cases, sadly understated.

  6. jjyz Says:

    Bob’s remarks are horrible and very dark. Falun Gong is “too much of a trashy cult,” so no one should care that people who practice Falun Gong are killed for their organs? Is that what we’re supposed to understand by that statement? That’s a really, really abnormal way of thinking. It’s a totally 20th century genocide mentality, right? The propaganda about Falun Gong that the CCP has been spreading all these years has been so thoroughly debunked by human rights organisations, scholars, journalists and researchers that it’s not funny. Only if you’re living under a rock, or in China, or are practising wilful ignorance, would you not know this.

    Falun Gong is a spiritual practice with exercises and books, it’s all available on the internet. No one pays any money, and no one is in charge. It’s a set of free teachings, not even any kind of particular ‘thing’, just a bunch of heterogeneous, unconnected individuals. Doing Falun Gong is just a matter of going to a park and doing the exercises, and in daily life following the principles of truthfulness, compassion, forbearance–that’s the closest to ‘membership’ there is. Falun Gong is a serious, disciplined ethical practice. The people who practice it just do exercises and read the books, apply the principles, and many of them go and protest against the CCP killing those who do the same thing in China. It’s an amazingly simple situation, in that sense. The persecution is a great injustice and simply a tragedy.

    The evidence of organ harvesting demands everyone’s attention–there is a heck of a lot of it. Liu’s letter goes nowhere to responding to the main of it, it just attempts to obfuscate the issue and waste people’s time. I have no idea why this website is posting it. It seems he’s being paid by the CCP or something anyway. Any topic for defending the CCP, he is all over it, all over the internet.

    I just found this site, is this like totally pro-CCP or something? Actually, just taking a look around, the site itself doesn’t seem to take too strong a stance, but some of those who leave comments are incredible examples of the success of political propaganda. To the point of absurdity, it seems, when looking at one person’s remark on the page about Hu Jia’s nomination: “The Chinese Communist government has done more for world peace than any other countries in the world.” — this is the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read.

  7. Steve Says:

    I wonder… do you think the Chinese government’s endless concern with Falun Gong goes back to Hong Xiuquan and his Taiping Heavenly Kingdom? They started off as a religious cult and almost overthrew the government, 20-30 million died and for twenty years they controlled large sections of the country. I’m not conparing the religions themselves but the idea of them. I think when the CCP discovered the size and breadth of FLG and even that many CCP members had joined, it looked back at history and got very nervous. You’d think they’d just register it as another religion and have some party member run it. Do you think because they have no control over Li Hongzhi and he’s the founder, control is not possible and they feel it poses a danger to the party?

  8. jjyz Says:

    Well, the CCP themselves came up with this explanation, but that was after the fact, as a way of justifying it. Falun Gong in no way resembles the Taiping. To be honest, I think it is hard to come up with a watertight, rational explanation for the persecution. It is essentially stupid and irrational, just like any egregious injustice that people do to each other. People do evil stuff, and no one can really explain why some people or groups do that. Usually they seem to think it serves a good cause, or at least a convenience. In no case can it be properly justified, though. But yeah, I think your answer is maybe the closest we can get. They can’t co-opt it, there’s nothing to co-opt, but those people are still out there every morning doing qigong exercises. Nor could the CCP make practitioners afraid, and the CCP’s rule depends on striking fear into people.

    Besides that though, the Politburo did not support the persecution–this is a known fact. Jiang took the whole thing very personally. He was enraged by the popularity and breadth of the practice, that there were so many Party members practicing, and that even many of the Politburo member’s wives were practicing. The Zhongnanhai appeal was too much for him. I guess when you have a kind of crazy mindset that everyone is out to get you, just people doing exercises is seen as a loss of legitimacy. Like, wow, there is a large swathe of society that doesn’t really care what the CCP does, they just want to do their own thing. That is kind of, delegitimising, in a sense, for that kind of political entity. Falun Gong is also incredibly “Chinese,” if I can put it that way. The CCP, on the other hand, has always done it’s best to root out Chinese culture, destroy its essence and insert itself in its place. The mere existence of Falun Gong (or rather, its popular appeal) is also, on that level, deeply challenging to the Party, without even doing anything. Li Hongzhi is over there talking about gods, Buddhas, demons and karmic retribution, and tens of millions of Chinese are listening to him. The CCP came up with some amusing propaganda posters in response, total throw-backs to the Cultural Revolution, cooked up in the heat of the campaign. Citizens beam while saluting a space shuttle in flight, while large font urges the populace to “uphold science, reject superstition,” etc..

    I think Zhuangzi’s story of “Owl and Phoenix” may sum it up a bit for the CCP:

    “Hui Tzu was prime minister of Liang province. He had heard that Chuang Tzu wanted his job and was plotting to usurp him. When Chuan Tzu came to visit Liang, Hui Tzu sent police to arrest him. The police searched unsuccessfully for three days and nights, but in the meantime Chuang Tzu presented himself at the palace voluntarily. He said to Hui Tzu: “Have you heard about the bird that lives in the south, the phoenix? It never grows old. It drinks only from the clearest springs. It rises out of the South Sea and flies to the North Sea without touching land or water, except to alight on sacred trees from which it takes its only food, the most exquisite rare fruit. “Once, an owl, chewing a dead, half-decayed rat, saw the phoenix fly overhead. The owl looked up and screeched with alarm, frantically clutching the rat to protect his kill. “Why are you frantically clutching your ministry and screeching at me with alarm?””

    Here are some links to stuff you can read or watch for explanation and stuff:

    http://www.david-kilgour.com/2007/Dec_06_2007_01a.htm — doco produced by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/falun-gong-party-chinese — good, brings up the taiping explanation I think. Check out the four articles cross-linked, written by Leeshai.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/986himak.asp — second page is about Falun Gong, and also offers an interesting analysis on Falun Gong’s reception in western media.

    PS: I’m receiving email updates on this post, so I’m just waiting for someone to start saying the torture, labor camps, pyschiatric abuses, beatings of old women to death, etc. etc., isn’t real. I’ve got like links to UN reports, Amnesty reports, investigative journalism, and a whole bag of other things. There are photos of this stuff, even in the documentary above. I can also easily find a mountain of quotes from articles by scholars who have actually done fieldwork with practitioners, and who say that Falun Gong is a loosely organised spiritual group with peaceful teachings, focused on ethical discipline, practiced by people anywhere in the world. Some commenters here seem most confused on this point, offering the explanation, without any evidence at all, that Falun Gong practitioners are focused on doing anything but this. Apparently practitioners like to poison beggars, commit necrophilia, or maim family members in their spare time, according to the CCP. Just in China though, only after 1999–and you’re not allowed to investigate thx.

  9. my_mother Says:

    Hey jjyz;

    I guess I am stupid enough to take the bait. Here’s something by one of your biggest fans — Samuel Luo. You can call him a communist spy too.


    Anyhow, I am neither for or against FLG. You guys could try to master levitation or drink all the Kool-Aid in the world for all I care. So, address all your indignant responses to Samuel.

  10. Charles Liu Says:

    (sorry been busy with the double-ten festivities lately…) my_mother, anyone who disagrees with them are Chinese spies:


  11. saimneor Says:

    @Charles Liu,

    I heard people saying FLG is tracking down people who object to their theory. I am absolutely shocked to see it in reality. http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2436 Wow, this has to be secret police, I guess. I am sure this thread is also being monitored and whoever think FLG is bad would end up with their names and home address made public? So much for freedom of speech.

  12. saimneor Says:

    @Mathew Dillon and everyone else,

    FLG is not only discussed publicly in china. They are convicted of being a anti-society cult. You may not respect chinese laws; but PRC government was trying to let people know more, not less.

    I could be very wrong. But I suggest Mr. Dillon and others actually read FLG’s own publishing before you whole-heartedly support it. Just because FLG is the enemy’s enemy does not automatically make it a friend. FLG theory is absolutely insane, in my view.

    FLG says aliens are taking over the world. In fact, many humans are already entered by aliens. The modern science and engineering are created by aliens, such as the computer you are using now. So, you’d better listen to the FLG master before too late. The master has the power to remove alien from you body.

    FLG designs a class system of human. The hybrid is below regular human, and gay people are below that, etc etc. Above regular person is FLG partitioners, and above those are different gods include Jesus and Chinese gods, a few level above that is the FLG master, the only master of the whole universe. Gay people are going to have a painful death and no one, even FLG, can rescue them.

    I just think these publications are anti-humanity after I read them. It is still a question on the motives of NED support of such a group. If you do not believe me, you can easily find the references by google it.

  13. jjyz Says:

    saimneor: Your comments are not an accurate reflection of the teachings of Falun Gong in my experience, most of what you said appears to be simply fabricated, and any shred of truth has been distorted beyond recognition. I’ve practiced Falun Gong for close to four years, and I have found it to be a powerful moral discipline. Falun Gong is about looking inside oneself when encountering problems, about examining one’s own motivations, giving up attachments, putting others before oneself, and basically about purifying one’s heart. It is called cultivation practice (修煉), and these things have been in Chinese culture for millennia.

    Falun Gong also includes belief in a whole range of otherworldly phenomena–so what? It certainly isn’t as you portray above. I practice Falun Gong, I’ve read all the books a bunch of times, and what you say is nothing close to my interpretation of the teachings. Since I am the practitioner, a person who takes these books to heart and lives life according to them, I think that my understanding and interpretation of them is the important one. It means nothing that some random person has flicked through some pages on falundafa.org, taken things completely out of context, and given a distorted representation of them. That doesn’t represent Falun Dafa at all. Actually, Falun Dafa impelled me to stop taking drugs a few years ago, and these days I feel healthy, friendly, active, and I live life with meaning. Aren’t these good things? I do the exercises in the mornings, read the books when I have time, and do my best to hold myself to a high standard of behaviour. Apart from that, what else is there?

    Falun Gong is fundamentally about teaching people to be good, based on truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. But it wouldn’t even matter what Falun Gong taught, to be honest. Unless some group teaches people how to directly to bad things to other people, and encourages them to do bad things, no governing institution has authority to attack them. This comes under the heading of freedom of religion. You can believe whatever you want, and the government should not interfere or even care. Claiming that some teachings of Falun Gong, even as you have bent them completely out of shape, are grounds for its being persecuted is ludicrous and barbaric. Perhaps you follow a certain belief system, or perhaps you are atheist. Imagine how you would feel if the government all of a sudden said that anyone who believes in that is now not allowed to believe in it anymore, and unless they sign a piece of paper condemning that belief, they will go to jail and be tortured. How would you feel about that? I think the Chinese Communist Party is the absolutely insane group here, not Falun Gong. Falun Gong is good for people and good for society. I think you should go and watch that documentary above, by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

    Here’s a comment by another practitioner that I’ve seen on the internet before. I’ll post it here. You can think what you like about Falun Gong’s metaphysical doctrines–though as I say, you’ve made things up and given bizarre distortions–but thinking it is okay to kill people because of that is wrong.:

    “In my view, the way some of you are applying the ‘cult’ label is yet another obfuscation of the word’s meaning. Talking about aliens, mixed-race marriages or homosexuality has no relation to whether Falun Gong is a ‘cult’ or not. You could shout “Heresy! Heterodoxy! Feudal superstition!” all over the place, just because you disagree with Li Hongzhi’s teachings. But that does not make Falun Gong a ‘cult’ or Li Hongzhi a ‘cult leader’. However, I’m aware of how such words are powerful tools in positioning Falun Gong practitioners–or anyone, for that matter–outside the borders of rationality and normalcy. Thus “cult members” is just another way of saying “inferior subjects”, whose autonomous will is not on the level of an ordinary citizen. More severe control measures then seem acceptable and justified, and the outsider’s “rational” view becomes the standard by which to judge what “they” really are all about. “Now, stay put while the doctor administers his cure!”

    But whether something deserves to be called a ‘cult’ is a matter of its operational structure. Falun Gong is not operating like a cult, which has been verified by all those who have done serious research on the movement. Practitioners know that perfectly well: they know such labels have absolutely nothing to do with their experiences. Those who choose to use this word in labeling Falun Gong are merely drawing a line of demarcation between ‘us’ and ‘them’, ‘purity’ and ‘danger’, ‘center’ and ‘margin’, while paying no attention to the accuracy of such concepts. Because they think Falun Gong is stupid and its practitioners are alienated from what is real, they couldn’t care less if people assume, for example, that Falun Gong is an “organization”, with a tight grip on the sheepish “cult members”, whose money is going up a pyramid structure to the hands of a callous, calculating and charismatic “cult leader”.

    Falun Gong is completely open for people to come in or leave. You don’t have to pay for anything. You either take responsibility for your own cultivation or you don’t, or you start working against the persecution or not, but nobody’s ever going to order you to do something. You never join any organization; the practice itself is about as informal as when you go play pétanque with your friends in a park. True, Falun Gong can be called dissidence, at least in relation to the dominant scientific paradigm. But we must keep in mind that China’s so-called qigong boom was widely perceived as a paradigm shift–a new form of science–and therefore it’s totally understandable why so many qigong enthusiasts, including many Falun Gong practitioners, are highly educated, as proven by fieldwork. True qigong’s effects are perfectly tangible and real; the discrepancy that exists between the views of materialist science and the phenomenology of qigong is a blatant farce. And judging by its pre-1999 popularity and the number of awards it received in China, Falun Gong is the most renowned qigong practice in history. That is why it was banned; it was too genuine, intertextual and deeply-rooted for the Communist leaders, as it created a meaningful existence outside of the Party framework. Taking into account what took place in China in the 1980s and 90s, the pop culture definition of qigong as just another “breathing exercise” is a form of revisionist history, an ideologically loaded concept that aims at neutralizing and diluting its essence. China’s qigong boom came to an abrupt end because of political repression; qigong was never conclusively proven false or irreal, but the leading ideologies of the scientific establishment have swept it under the carpet, along with a myriad of other anomalous phenomena that call into question the legacy of the Western Enlightenment. This is nothing new, but its implications are sometimes forgotten.

    In this way, deliberate obfuscation of the ‘cult’ label is, in itself, a tool of ideological struggle, not infrequently linked to militant secularism, scientism, or, ironically, even religious fundamentalism. It postulates a “closed” reality, a fixed set of metaphysical axioms, and seeks to crush its perceived adversaries by the way of social exclusion, even if it has to prostitute language itself: it doesn’t matter if apples become oranges or war becomes peace. Of course, many people slap labels without any profound idea of what they’re doing, but in this matter, they are, unwittingly or not, serving as lackeys of those who would rather see “heresy” weeded out to pave the way for a Brave New World. Talk about yet another Hegelian nightmare! It is heartbreaking to see how the 20th Century couldn’t teach us very much.”

  14. saimneor Says:


    To be clear, I did not say FLG is a cult. I was simply saying PRC gov convicted FLG as a cult in violation of chinese law. I saw many labels in your message, some big words, but what I wrote was my personal opinion based on reading the official FLG publications.

    I also happen to find you copied, word by word, from Robert Vance’s blog:
    If you are not Robert, you should at least add some references, I suggest.

    As a FLG practitioner, you should consider Master Li as the highest ruling god in the universe, is it not? He said in the book that his words are always true and must be strictly followed. If you are a FLG practitioner, I hope you know that as your first principle in life. Can you please confirm this? I’d like to hear from someone who really believe Master Li’s theory.

    FLG is good at keeping Master Li’s records. So, I can google and still find the text I read in the past. Just to prove I did not pull those text out of thin air, here is Master Li’s own words as published on FLG official website. And please let me know what you think of these, this is my biggest obstacle in accepting FLG as a reasonable religion:

    *** On multi-colored aliens ***
    “… … I’ve told you that in different dimensions it’s not that all beings are like the Buddhas and Gods everywhere in the heavens—beings differ quite substantially. There are also places like that of human beings, but few. Yet there are particularly more places like those of alien beings. They need to fly and need to use flying devices. I can’t tell you about all those, leading your thinking toward those places and encouraging curiosity. Beings are extremely complex. There are worlds of all kinds and there’s great diversity in the cosmos. Now we only have white, yellow, and black races of humans on earth; over there, there are also green and blue ones, and even multi-colored ones. There are diverse ones of every sort, unlike anything you’ve imagined. In other words, you should stop thinking about these issues with your human frame of mind.”

    *** On aliens among humans ***
    “… …But our way of practice doesn’t allow it to come out, or at least not during the present period. As I just said, this is the only dimension that’s still not yet taken care of, and it’s very filthy and dangerous here. When dimensions at upper levels were dealt with, many beings actually came into this dimension—even bad things from very high levels came. Some people you see walking on the streets are not, in fact, humans. If you have the ability, take a look at this world and you’ll see that there are many alien beings. Yet they look like human beings and you can’t tell the difference. All these need to be dealt with.

    *** On FLG remove sinners among human ***
    “… …So I’ve used the opportunity of this Fa-rectification to change many things. I can’t talk about these things. But I can tell you that since mankind is a part of the cosmos and since Dafa has been spread here… In the past there was no human race here; no matter how many Earths have been re-constructed after disintegrating, the main beings here always had the appearance of alien beings. Their outward appearances were very different each time, but none of them had the outward appearance and the internal systems of human beings, let alone the human mind. But today’s human beings were created for the spreading of Dafa. So after those people who have sinned against Dafa are eliminated, the people who remain will have blessings. So in the future the people on Earth will really have the appearance of humans. In other words, the future human race will truly begin in the next stage. The life-form this time was created for spreading Dafa. In the future there will still be Buddhas, Daos, and Gods coming down to the earth to save people, sentient beings will still be able to listen to the Fa, and sentient beings will again be saved. But things like a God coming to save people and getting crucified will never happen again. ”

    *** On how righteous thoughts kill the evil spirit who has a human form ***
    “… …That’s the situation now. It’s because there are no longer that many evil beings for the old forces to use. And the second they see Dafa disciples sending righteous thoughts they flee. When you go to the Chinese consulates to make appeals, the consulates seem really scared. It’s not actually the human beings who are afraid, but those evil ones that manipulate human beings. When it manifests over here in this human dimension, they appear to be really scared, when in fact it’s the evil factors that are afraid. If the evil is completely eliminated, and if at that time even the people in the consulates come out to learn Falun Gong from us, it would be just too terrifying for that chief political scoundrel in China. That’s why the evil beings are trying so hard to control those who work in the consulates, and to keep up everything that the evil has been doing. But despite this, they can’t keep it up anymore. In China, other than the city where the head of the evil resides, in other areas the evil no longer controls the whole area. The evil beings have been eliminated so much that not many are left, and the situations in large areas are becoming better. If you send forth righteous thoughts at the head of the evil from nearby it, the evil won’t keep replenishing and protecting it fast enough, and that creature will take his last breath. The reason is, it has none of its human things left, and its skin is entirely sustained by the evil beings—sending righteous thoughts eliminates them. If that replenishing can’t be kept up it will drop dead. Last time when the students sent forth righteous thoughts nearby it in Malta, it almost collapsed. That’s how it is. It no longer has anything human in it. Now it has lost its senses and doesn’t have normal human thoughts. It is alive for us. Its human reasoning is getting less and less rational. Actually, the staff members of the consulates in some regions have already started to come out and make contact with our students, some have already taken our materials quietly, and have said to us in private, “Good job!”

    *** On The World’s Ten Evils and view on Homosexuality ***
    “Humans without kind thoughts— Human against human as enemy.
    Destroying traditions— Culture turning decadent.
    Homosexuality, licentious desires— Dark heart, turning demonic.
    Gambling popular, drugs popular— Following whims and desires.
    Lifting restrictions, promiscuity— Leading to evil and wickedness.
    Sinister gangs, treacherous factions— Politicians and bandits, all one family.
    Acting on one’s own decisions, deranging the masses— Against heaven, betraying Dao.
    Blindly believing in science— Mutant mankind.

    Publicizing and revering violence— Fond of audaciousness, competing at ruthlessness.
    Religions turned evil— Money seekers, politicians.
    July 7, 1998

    *** On Homosexuality as a crime ***
    “… …A lot of people have done many bad deeds. Things such as organized crime, homosexuality, and promiscuous sex, etc., none are the standards of being human. How do Buddhas look at these issues? Your government permits them. Laws permit them. Still, it is only the approval by mankind itself. The principles of heaven do not permit them! In the past, beautiful and good things were the objects of pursuit for mankind. Now, you take a look at the toys that are being sold, the paintings that are painted, they are all randomly and casually slapped together and smeared, and this is artistry. What is it? No one can say it for sure. All human concepts are changing in the opposite direction. A pile of trash laid out there would become a master sculptor’s work. The entire societal phenomenon is like this.

  15. jjyz Says:

    Hello. I’ll try to answer your questions as best I can, just according to my understanding and experience. This post consequently became a bit long.

    Sorry I’m not too familiar with blogger etiquette, I’ve seen that passage copied across several blogs and things, and I didn’t think it would be a problem if I nabbed it. I think it is a fair statement about the situation and a meaningful orientation for discussing Falun Gong, especially in the context of this persecution, so thought it would be a good idea to grab it.

    I would also like to first clear something up. What you say about “PRC gov convicted FLG as a cult in violation of chinese law” is untrue. Here’s a quote from the Washington Post:

    “It was Jiang who ordered that Falun Gong be labeled a ‘cult,’ and then demanded that a law be passed banning cults, a party source said. ‘This obviously is very personal for Jiang,’ said one party official. ‘He wants this [group] crushed.'” — November 12, 1999

    Here’s are a series of quotes from Edelman and Richardson’s article in the Journal of Church and State, “Falun Gong and the Law: Development of Legal Social Control in China,”

    “In 1999 the government of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) labeled Falun Gong an “evil cult” and began a campaign to eliminate the qigong movement of which it was a part. The West was quick to condemn the PRC’s action as a violation of human rights. In response, the PRC government criticized the West for interfering in its internal affairs, and using “human rights” as an excuse to impose its will upon the PRC. Rather than formulating an attack on the PRC government using Western principles of democracy, human rights, and the rule of law, this article analyzes the legality of the PRC’s campaign against Falun Gong within the framework of the legal and political systems developed in the PRC Constitution, other relevant documents and international treaties to which the PRC is a signatory nation. It is argued that the PRC government acted outside of its constitutional authority, violated citizens’ basic rights, and overstepped its own boundaries in its war against Falun Gong and its practitioners.” (312)

    “It was estimated in February 2000 that 35,000 practitioners had been detained, 300 jailed, 5,000 sent to labor camps, and 50 committed to mental hospitals.3 Estimates also place the number of dead at over 200, and there have been 11 confirmed deaths. Current reported numbers of those detained, jailed, and committed are even higher.” (313)

    “Unlike the West, where law is usually seen as a constraint on the power of the state, the PRC views law as a means to maintain stability, regulate society, protect the interests of Communist ruling class, and strengthen and enforce the government’s authority” (314).

    “The ruling Communist elite may use laws to enforce its policies, but the elite class itself is not easily constrained by law. This reflects a system known as the rule by law…The rule by law enables the power holders to use law enforcement to exert social control over the populace” (314).

    “If a Party policy violates the rights guaranteed under the Constitution, the NPC and its Standing Committee have the constitutional obligation to negate the passage of legislation in favor of policies in compliance with it. Although the Party might have perceived Falun Gong as a threat, the NPC had the legal responsibility to protect Falun Gong adherents’ constitutional rights” (316).


    I hope all this is not just more big words and stuff. I think those passages above are actually just the most basic and obvious things. There’s more which is horribly worse, like days being handcuffed in painful positions, water torture, electric baton torture, brainwashing sessions, all manner of cruel things that you can imagine, meted out to these people purely because of their faith. The point is that I just think it’s quite central to get this issue cleared up. Falun Gong is being unjustly persecuted. It isn’t just an illegal ban because of weird beliefs, but a vicious persecution. When you want to turn to a discussion of Falun Gong in this context, I think it is important to first acknowledge this fact, make clear that one condemns the persecution, that Falun Gong practitioners should be protected under freedom of religion, freedom of belief, and then proceed to do your dissection and analysis of the teachings, and come to whatever conclusion about them that you will. If you jump ahead and start at what Falun Gong teaches then work backwards to justify, explain away, or obfuscate the persecution you have gone way off course. Perhaps this is not your intention, I just wanted to share my understanding of this situation, and what I think should be the priority for addressing things. The persecution has to stop, first of all. Then we can do whatever armchair philosophy we like about Falun Gong.

    So in response to your notes. I think it is better that you posted what Li Hongzhi said himself here rather used your own synthesis. The emphasis wasn’t in the original. I understand how you may find these aspects of the teachings particularly noteworthy or interesting. To be honest, I don’t really share your feelings. I have read all this many times, but I do not think it is really a big deal. These have to do with Falun Dafa’s metaphysical teachings, it just seems to have no relevance to anyone but practitioners, and even then, it is just something I am aware of, have read, but which doesn’t hold a particular importance in my heart. I practice Falun Dafa partly out of a sense of responsibility to myself and to others… how can I put it. What I mean is that I apply myself to this discipline for myself, because I wish to be a better person, and elevate my understanding of myself and the world around me.

    I don’t relate to your remarks that, “…you should consider Master Li as the highest ruling god in the universe… He said in the book that his words are always true and must be strictly followed. If you are a FLG practitioner, I hope you know that as your first principle in life.”

    I don’t think those things are very accurate, they certainly don’t reflect my experience. Are you telling me what my beliefs are, or expressing your understanding of what you think people may believe by reading the Falun Gong books? The former makes no sense. If it is the latter, wouldn’t it be better to just ask your questions in a straightforward manner, or maybe even simpler, to ask open-ended questions, and see what I say? This would mean you are sincerely interested to understand how Falun Gong practitioners understand themselves, and how they relate to the teachings of Falun Gong. Anyway, I hope you are sincere when you say that you would like to know how I understand my Falun Gong practice. If you do not mean to make a genuine enquiry into that matter, but instead to reinforce your prejudices, I don’t think I can do much to help.

    I can tell you my feeling that if anyone read the books and wanted to be practitioner with the kind of understanding you put forth, it would probably be a good idea for them to go do something else. I’ve met hundreds of practitioners and no one says things like that. Specifically: I’ve never read Master Li describe himself as “the highest ruling god in the universe,” that “his words are always true and must be strictly followed.”

    This is not some mind control outfit. You come to what understanding you can, and everyone is different. Wanting to practice Falun Gong comes from an individual’s heart, and it is a desire to better oneself. It is true that I believe Master Li’s words are truth, and I also believe that people who choose to practice Falun Gong should follow them. But this should not be understood in the wrong way, and nor does it mean that the way you framed it is the same way that I understand it. It’s clear that anyone would then ask “well, what if he told you to kill someone? What then?” and this would completely prove my point. If you want to come to understand this with human thoughts then you may not understand it properly. Anyway, it’s the same with any religion or these kind of beliefs in the divine. In my understanding, it is predicated on an enlightened being who has descended to the world to offer salvation to people. Just ask a Christian how they understand Jesus. They believe that he came to this world to offer salvation to people and that he bore the sins of humanity. They have church services worshiping his sacrifice. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I wonder if you have kept these comparisons in mind.

    Actually, I would not even begrudge someone the several hours it would take to communicate what axioms I am going on and all that I have read and come to understand over the years, about how I relate to and understand Falun Gong. I’d be happy to spell it all out. Right now though I can’t do that, I don’t even know who you are, and I don’t know your background, and I’m busy. I also don’t even know whether it would be worthwhile, because you may not even care what I say, maybe you are just trolling, looking for a bite and to waste my time without any actual sincere interest to come to a greater understanding of Falun Gong or Falun gong practitioners.

    I want to say some things though. Let me find a quote which I saw on Amazon some time ago, a short review of Zhuan Falun. The reviewer calls it “Pythagoras re-vamped”:

    “This is the latest in a series of events directing human souls toward their harmonious destiny. What pythagoras began 2,500 yrs ago and failed, master li is succeeding on an amazing scale. The book is a jewel in the rough. Be careful reading however, and give the book in a gurdjieffian since a “triple take”. The mind (ego) will have difficulties, however as you read you’ll understand why.

    “If you have known the modern enlightened masters preceeding master li such as krishnamurti, osho, gurdjieff and others; you shall find striking similarities and the importance of the time, which is now, we are living in this century.”

    Before I had heard of Falun Gong I’d already read most of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky’s books, and I’ve read a lot of philosophy, and a lot of stuff on parapsychology and other subjects. Zhuan Falun was a synthesis and crystallisation of what I had come to understand over the course of several years reading. I approached all this from too much of an intellectual angle at first, and only later really understood that this kind of mere rational/philosophical engagement and analysis misses the point. Nevertheless, I can say that I’m not some brainwashed idiot with nothing else to do with his life. I had to go through a lot to be able to practice Falun Gong, like give up doing drugs, drinking, and casual sex, which I really liked to do at that time. Might sound petty, but I strongly identified with these ideas and behaviours, even though I knew that there is something more pure, truthful, and closer to reality that is available for anyone who is willing to reach for it. The point is that this process of changing one’s understanding of oneself is quite difficult, and like, migrating one’s understanding of what is good from some intellectual idea to something more concrete and lived out, this is a form of suffering and re-understanding. Check out the final chapter of Spinoza’s Ethics for a basic rundown, if I can put it that way, of what underpins this. I’m going to copy the final part for you here:

    “I have thus completed all I wished to set forth touching the mind’s power over the emotions and the mind’s freedom. Whence it appears, how potent is the wise man, and how much he surpasses the ignorant man, who is driven only by his lusts. For the ignorant man is not only distracted in various ways by external causes without ever gaining the true acquiescence of his spirit, but moreover lives, as it were unwitting of himself, and of God, and of things, and as soon as he ceases to suffer, ceases also to be.
    Whereas the wise man, in so far as he is regarded as such, is scarcely at all disturbed in spirit, but, being conscious of himself, and of God, and of things, by a certain eternal necessity, never ceases to be, but always possesses true acquiescence of his spirit.

    If the way which I have pointed out as leading to this result seems exceedingly hard, it may nevertheless be discovered. Needs must it be hard, since it is so seldom found. How would it be possible, if salvation were ready to our hand, and could without great labour be found, that it should be by almost all men neglected? But all things excellent are as difficult as they are rare.” (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ethics_(Spinoza)/Part_5 )


    I don’t know if I’ve adequately addressed your note. You want to know how I understand the parts of the Fa that you copied and bolded here? I think that, like I say, I don’t attach extra importance to them. I have read them, note them, and that’s it. They are metaphysical things to me, and they don’t have a direct impact on how I relate to the world and to other people. I have 6 close friends who are homosexual (I just counted, could be more), and I might be able to think of as many Falun Gong practitioners who are married either to other practitioner or non-practitioner which are of different races, who have had children together, mostly Chinese-western. This is actually quite common. It’s like, no one will not marry a person from another practice because of what you paste here, and that’s not at all what Master Li was talking about. I’m just saying how practitioners themselves understand these teachings and apply them. It isn’t as you say. If you do not care about how practitioners themselves actually live these things out, I think you’re missing the point entirely. As I say, it doesn’t really matter what some random who downloads the books off the net and flips through them thinks—that is irrelevant. It matters what the people who take these things to heart think and how they behave. There is simply no discrimination at all, from Falun Gong practitioners to people of any race, sexual orientation, political orientation, or anything else. Falun Gong teaches compassion to all sentient beings, this is the most central thing. Here’s some parts from the end of the Canada 1999 lecture, which I just read recently, actually, which relate to this.

    “I said that I don’t want to oppose so-called science, yet I have seen the true predicament of the human race. Since I am offering salvation to you in this setting, I have to live in this place, riding in cars and flying in airplanes. Science and the extraterrestrials are also products of the universe. However, the development of the human race will always have its beginning and will develop to its end. This is a law. All I have done is to tell you one of today’s phenomena in order for my students to understand the universe as they cultivate.”

    Actually, it wouldn’t be right to post a five hundred or 1000 word transcript here, but I would recommend you take a look at the final remarks section of this lecture. I think it says things clearly on these points. Here’s the English link: http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lectures/19990523L.html, Chinese: http://www.falundafa.org/book/chibig5/canada.htm

    I think that essentially the form of Falun Gong practice is carried out in a way that is highly fitting for this secular, brave new world, in a sense. I don’t know if you know what I mean by that. There are no rituals involved, no worship, kind of, nothing that manifests on the surface other than doing the exercises, reading the books, and being a good person. Falun Gong, as a spiritual practice or group, is absolutely not some kind of political or social force, focused on what people are doing in society, like some government policies, or certain social agendas. We are not interested in politics or trying to establish some kind of power-base. Practitioners, or let me talk from my own perspective, I simply take no stance on any of those things, but simply seek to end the persecution as soon as possible and for those in China to be free to practice the exercises and read the books.

    If you really wanted to approach this from an ultra-rational perspective, like someone who claimed no ontology but only looked at things objectively, in three dimensions, you would have zero problems with Falun Gong. Actually, you’d even have to say that Falun Gong is awesome, it makes people not fight with others, it makes them work harder, makes them more understanding and cooperative, healthier, with more energy, etc.. I can say that those things are certainly true in my experience and with the many practitioners I know. We have experienced quite similar things along those lines. Even up to 1999 Falun Gong was receiving official praise that it saves billions of yuan in health care costs. I can find you the quote, it was from the February 1999 edition of the US World and News Report—a search may reveal it for you.

    In sum, you don’t have to believe Falun Gong is the truth, and nor would I seek to convince anyone of that. You can think what you like about the teachings of Falun Gong, and I don’t really care if you think they are stupid. But you should be very clear that Falun Gong is being persecuted, that practitioners are guilty of no wrongdoing, and that the persecution is wrong and should stop. That’s basically all I seek to convince anyone of, or get across. These should be simple facts that anyone who takes a look at the evidence, and thinks for themselves, should be able to recognise. There’s a lot of information available on the internet, and that CBC documentary above is a good rundown of some key points. I can give you links to more boring reports by scholars and the UN and human rights groups if you want. I hope you have found reading this enriching in some way. Best wishes.

  16. Otto Kerner Says:

    I have no idea if the beliefs ascribed to Falun Gong are actually their beliefs or not. I wouldn’t put it past certain parties to make things up, and other parties to believe in those made-up stories. However, in case these asserions are true, I think it needs to be said that all or almost all religions include some ideas that sound bizarre or silly when taken out of context. When I say “out of context”, I don’t mean to implicitly validate those beliefs; I suppose a lot of them really are silly according to my understanding of the world, and yet they are accepted within the context of that religion. If those beliefs are extremely widespread in society, people stop noticing how odd they are, but small religions have no such luck, and so it’s easy to make fun of them. I’m thinking of the beliefs of Mormonism or Scientology — this might apply to Falun Dafa as well. I don’t think this constitutes a sufficient cause for banning or severely restricting any of those religions.

    However, I think it’s obvious that the PRC does not actually believe in the idea of freedom of religion. I’m not sure what proportion of its apologists do, either.

  17. GNZ Says:

    I think you have to twist yourself in some pretty fancy philosophical knots to consider cults such as the FG a problem and yet find major religions like catholosism and most of islam to be OK.

  18. jjyz Says:

    uhh.. besides Falun Gong not being a cult to begin with.

  19. GNZ Says:

    depends on your definition of a cult – the best definition I can think of is a hierarchical religion (i.e. a religion where there are people at the top who’s words have religious significance and are ‘adored’ by the followers such that they are convinced to do things they would otherwise not want to do). I presume this is true for Falun Gong.

    What is your definition of a cult?

  20. jjyz Says:

    In the context of Falun Gong, it can only be said that Master Li holds definitional power. You can accept that or not, or do what you want, if you don’t want to believe him you just don’t believe him. If you want to believe him then you can. The teachings are published on the internet for anyone to access freely, along with the exercises videos. I’d call Falun Gong a free set of teachings above all else. The term cult is a matter of organisational structure, it should be understood purely in a social rather than ontological context–I mean that it doesn’t matter what you teach or what you say, but how you run things in meatspace.

    I’d define a cult like Benjamin Penny does: any group that you’d not like your daughter to associate with. This is a working definition that I think is far more useful than most others. I understand some characteristics of cults to be: profiteering off people but without providing any physical product in return, a kind of hierarchy that is hidden, lies, lots of lies, concealing information, retaliating for apostasy, obedience to a doctrine that the followers cannot give a reasonable sounding explanation for… but you know what, this becomes very difficult, because many groups in society unrelated to religion would hit a lot of these characteristics, and some of those former characteristics may be perfectly reasonable under certain circumstances. And what are designated legitimate religions also start to sound like some of the definitions offered up for cults, such as worship for a figurehead (Christianity), and so on. One thing is that you simply can’t attempt to distinguish between what are “reasonable” and “unreasonable” things for people to believe in–this could only result in conflict.

    Pythagoras had thousands of disciples in a monastery back in the day, they came there freely. But everything was totally concealed, and things would only be revealed at certain times. Anyone who wanted to join them had to take a vow of silence for 5 years. Nowadays we’d say that it was a “compound” where he was doing all kinds of bad stuff and brainwashing people. But now everyone thinks Pythagoras is a legend. I think something that complicates the matter is the state of this society, where really, a lot of people do bad things, and you have to come up with ways of restricting them and stuff. I think this term cult may refer to different phenomenon depending on the time period. Fundamentally I’d say a cult is a group of people who do bad things together and harming others, with a shared ideology. I’d say the Chinese Communist Party is the biggest cult on the planet.

  21. Jerry Says:

    @Otto Kerner #16
    @Charles Liu

    Otto, I know next to nothing about Falun Gong. I know that the word “cult” is a loaded and provocative word. It is often used as a disparaging cudgel to bludgeon others.

    I have no idea if the beliefs ascribed to Falun Gong are actually their beliefs or not. I wouldn’t put it past certain parties to make things up, and other parties to believe in those made-up stories. However, in case these asserions are true, I think it needs to be said that all or almost all religions include some ideas that sound bizarre or silly when taken out of context.

    I agree with your comments about the fabrication of stories and that most religions have some beliefs or practices bordering on the “cultish”. Ah, distortions about that with which we disagree or think we disagree, what a human trait! And what a wonderful word with which to crush them: “cult”.



    There is a lot of energy on both sides of this FLG discussion. I find it fascinating.

    Cults are a “dime a dozen” in the US. The whole topic is generally a non-starter with me. FLG is a non-starter with me. It is when they threaten life that I perk up and take notice. I am referring to Elohim City, Jim Jones, the Rajneeshees, Aum Shinrikyo, Al-Quaida, etc. That kind of extremism is scary. I am in no way insinuating that FLG falls into this group. I just don’t know.

    Extremism can apply also to my people and people who don’t like us. Being Jewish, I know of Holocaust denial. I also know of Elie Wiesel’s “Holocaust industry“. I agree that we should never forget the Holocaust, but Wiesel is a little bit much for me. I also know of Simon Wiesenthal, the prototypical, obsessive Nazi hunter. I can understand that. And who can ignore Zionism. Zionistic extremists make me shudder. Guys like David Horowitz, Shaul Mofaz and Alan Dershowitz make me shudder. Meir Kahane and his JDL made me shudder (I have not thought about him in a long time). There are right-wing, ultra-Orthodox Jewish sects which have many “cultish” beliefs. The Nazis of the Third Reich and current Neo-Nazis had/have many “cultish” beliefs. Think or believe what you want, I oft say. When you threaten people, that’s a different matter.

    I did see a US State Department press briefing on FLG. Interesting. I generally take items like this with a large grain of salt.

    Office of the Spokesman
    April 14, 2006

    Taken Question from 04-14-06 Daily Press Briefing

    China: Reports of Concentration Camp in Northeast China

    Question: What information can you provide regarding a reported concentration camp in China where Falun Gong practitioners were jailed and their organs harvested?

    Answer: We are aware of the allegations and have taken these charges seriously. The Department and our Embassy in Beijing, as well as our Consulate General in Shenyang, have actively sought to determine the facts of the matter. Officers and staff from our Embassy in Beijing and Consulate in Shenyang have visited the area and the specific site mentioned in these reports on two separate occasions. In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.

    We have raised these reports with the Chinese government and urged it to investigate these allegations. China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesperson has publicly denied there is any basis for the allegations.

    Independent of these specific allegations, we remain concerned over China’s repression of Falun Gong practitioners. We are also concerned by reports of organ harvesting. We have raised these concerns both in our annual Human Rights Report and in discussions with the Chinese government, both in Washington and in Beijing.


    Question: does FLG really hold modern science in disrepute?

  22. jjyz Says:

    Take a look at the Kilgour-Matas report on organ harvesting, if you like: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ . Recently they have even harder evidence (a hairs breadth away from direct confirmation by the doctor that he admitted he going to prison to select Falun Gong practitioners for organ harvest. A hairs breadth from direct confirmation, but his comments still serve as confirmation anyway), here: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/release/pr-2008-08-22.htm, and here’s commentary: http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/CNN-Facing-Disgrace-Buste-by-John-Kusumi-080824-502.html .

  23. Jerry Says:

    @jjyz, #22

    Comment. Trial in the media is not the same as trial by a judicial body.

    This is Allen’s bag, but I do have some questions. Would this evidence convince a DA to indict someone for a crime? Conduct a grand jury hearing? How credible is the evidence and the witness? Is this incontrovertible evidence? Based on this evidence, would a competent policing authority open an investigation? I am sure that there are a lot more questions which can be asked.

  24. jjyz Says:

    Absolutely, there are a massive amount of questions. The CCP won’t let anyone into China to have a poke around though, of course, nor do they believe in transparency when it comes to anything they do. They send out propaganda and attack videos in response. You can look into all the evidence and make your own conclusions. The 41,500 “missing” organs is still unresolved. Whether you come to your own conclusion about this now or wait for the mainstream to catch on and then accept it, well, everyone figures that part out for themselves. Have a squiz at the report though and nut out what their main pieces of circumstantial evidence are. The only respondents I have seen simply do not address this evidence, but instead spin all sorts of side tails that obfuscate it. The least we can say is what Nowak said, I think: the totality of evidence that Kilgour and Matas present is coherent, paints a damning, damning picture, and the CCP has a responsibility to respond in a transparent way, explain where the organs came from, and allow a full, independent investigation. Besides that, they should stop the persecution of Falun Gong right now.

  25. Steve Rose Says:

    People, if you always believe what you were told, be careful. After reading jjyz’s message I made a little digging. The exact same story was told by FLG medias; but then I found they are all backed by NED/CIA.

    I found the following independent report on this issue. And guess what, the conclusion is just the opposite as jjyz’s accusations. This is from Harry Wu, the most well known chinese dissident who spearheads the anti-CCP organization called the China Information Center.

    Link: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

    Harry told the complete story; he was a firm believer and a strong supporter to FLG initially. However, after his own investigations Harry found no evidence to support FLG’s accusations. Once his conclusion is published, he was called by FLG people as a butcher. Harry Wu’s article above contains complete details on how he worked with the FLG people and how the investigation was conducted. It is actually quite funny to read. You can almost sense how desperate FLG people are. Harry Wu also pointed out the link between FLG and certain US senators and CIA. Harry’s confidential reports was conveniently delivered to FLG’s hands for review. This does not smell right to me. Maybe jjyz can comment on it and provide a reasonable explanation without calling Wu a butcher?

    Some parts for the readers:

    (15) On April 14, the US Department of State released its report of the investigation about Sujiatun by the Embassy in Beijing and the Consulate in Shenyang. The report said: “No evidence was discovered that says the place is used for any other purpose other than as a public hospital.”

    Mr Wu said he sent his own investigators to two prisons in the area mentioned by the Falun Gong, observing the institutions from the outside and interviewing people coming out of the prison and local residents.

    He said he discovered there were Falun Gong practitioners being held in the prisons. But his team could not locate any trace of the concentration camp or corroborate the claims of forced organ removals.

    Investigators also visited two hospitals in the area, but again found no evidence.

    US officials from the embassy in Beijing and the consulate in Shenyang also visited the area twice in April, but came up empty handed.

    “US representatives have found no evidence to support allegations that a site in northeast China has been used as a concentration camp to jail Falun Gong practitioners and harvest their organs,” the US State Department said in April.

    Mr Wu questioned the feasibility of the claims. He said a total of 4,500 victims “would mean 1,500 persons per year, or at least 120 persons per month whose organs were removed”.

    “This would be impossible to accomplish in an environment such as Sujiatun,” he said. “China takes organs from many executed prisoners every year, but to kill 4,000 or 5,000 people, I don’t think so. Professional doctors would not do this.” He also cast doubt on claims that a doctor removed corneas from 2,000 followers in less than two years.

  26. jjyz Says:

    *rolls eyes* Wu is talking specifically about Sujiatun, he is not talking about the Kilgour-Matas report. The wikipedia article on this topic does an okay job of making clear where the differences between the two sets of allegations lie. Please do not confuse the two of them. The Kilgour-Matas report has yet to be refuted. This is precisely the sort of muddying of the waters that is so useful for the perpetrators of these horrendous crimes.

    One more thing is that I never called Wu a butcher. I’ve never met the man. “FLG” didn’t call him a butcher either. There’s not even such a “thing” as Falun Gong in and of itself, except for a set of exercises and books. Anyone can apply themselves to those exercises and books, and they are discrete, heterogeneous individuals. You can call them Falun Gong practitioners for convenience, but it’s not some kind of organisation or even cohesive group. Falun Gong practice is less organised than chess or swimming, if you want to do it you just go ahead and do it. I play chess as well. If some chess player calls someone a butcher, would you ask whether it means I would also like to call them a butcher? Of course, the analogy only goes so far; Falun Gong practitioners share the same beliefs, whereas chess players do not necessarily. Just to give an example.

    I might also point out that I think your bolding above is a little sad. Perhaps Falun Gong practitioners were desperate under these circumstances. Shouldn’t that be a reason to sympathise with their plight a little more, rather than a chance to ridicule them? They are tortured to death in China for their beliefs, you know, and now this credible evidence of organ harvesting emerges and no one else really seems to make a move or care. There’s right now a rock solid case for organ harvesting, and it still hasn’t saturated the public. Tell me you wouldn’t be a little desperate under those circumstances.

    Mostly, however, the Sujiatun case finished with a question mark above it more than anything else. Take a read of Ethan Gutmann’s article, below. Yeah, people say he’s some kind of right-wing figure as well, I understand. I don’t really know his story or care. I don’t support any agenda, just the one that seeks to stop the persecution. If Hu Jintao himself had written this article I’d recommend it to people to read: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/160ymogj.asp?pg=1

    The bottom line is that there’s a giant stack of evidence that hasn’t been responded to at all by the CCP. Any reasonable person would simply have to conclude at least two things: the CCP should stop killing and torturing Falun Gong practitioners, and release all detained practitioners unconditionally, end of story. And the CCP should allow for an independent investigation into these most serious allegations instead of spreading propaganda and disinformation in response.

  27. Steve Rose Says:

    From Wu’s report

    “(12) On April 8, the Falun Gong medium Renminbao published two articles, “Chaos at the senior level of National Security” and “The butcher Wu Hongda.” The articles named me directly as interfering with the Sujiatun investigations. Therefore, I am the “butcher” and “National Security senior-level spy.” The articles included my photograph.”

  28. GNZ Says:

    Does anyone think the Chinese prison system doesn’t engage in organ harvesting? And that if a falun gong member died that they run at least some chance of becoming part of that system, and their organ being used to save the life of some local?
    Surely evidence of that and the sort of procedures that would surround it is nothing new.

    I presume the claim being defended is that the prisons were going out of their way to kill tens of thousands of people for their organs… that sounds pretty unlikely.

  29. Steve Rose Says:


    All US hospitals do things in the same manner. Try google it. There were many reports on doctors cutting off organs while the person is partially alive. As long as the person is declared as brain dead, part of the nerve system can still function, such a person can still sit up, for example.

    A new trend in US and Canada is to “harvest” organs after heart dead, before brain dead is announced. This has been a hot topic.

  30. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Steve Rose:
    just curious, are you the artist formerly known as “Steve” in these parts, or is the last name to serve as a distinguishing feature?

    It’s ironic that FLG has in some ways become a caricature of China herself. If you support them, you see things from one perspective; if you don’t, then your perspective is diabolically opposed to the first. For China, hopefully a steady move towards increased transparency will allow more independent assessment of the “facts”. But I wonder if such a move will bring with it a parallel increase to transparency of the FLG. Time will tell.

    On a somewhat related track, does China have an organ-donation system? I mean an above-board one, not what the FLG suggest?

    But Steve Rose, you’re not suggesting that in Canada, people harvest organs without the family’s consent, are you? Cuz I haven’t heard of any such uproar. I can’t speak about the US, however.

  31. jjyz Says:

    Cheung, personally I don’t feel that if anyone doesn’t “support” Falun Gong that they are opposed to me, or something. I’m not Falun Gong, but like, I’m a practitioner, so when you say “Falun Gong” like that, I assume it’s talking about me in my capacity as a practitioner. I think anyone who has practiced it for a while is just as qualified as any other to represent the discipline, in a sense. But then again, I don’t even really feel like there is anything to support. Even if someone says they hate Falun Gong, I don’t consider that person my enemy. Falun Gong is just some books and exercises, and people do them in the park all over the world, except in China. We don’t want to make everyone think that Falun Gong is what everyone should come and practice, and if you don’t then your a baddie. It’s not like that, I don’t feel that way. I think that, though, if you don’t think that the persecution should stop, and that Falun Gong practitioners should be free to carry out their peaceful beliefs without harassment, torture, and so on, then that’s your own problem. If you didn’t know the facts of the situation, there is much you can read. If you did not like some of Falun Gong’s activities or beliefs, then I could just explain my understanding of them and my experience with the discipline. It could never really be more than that. I’m in no position of power except over myself, and it’s the same with other practitioners. In fact, this is a stated position of powerlessness, and the only thing to do from here is to simply state my understanding of what is the most truthful and best way to look at the situation, and people can decide from that as they will. It’s just a matter of getting the information in front of you, then you can make up your own mind about how you interpret it. If someone says they are against Falun Gong, I’ll first assume they simply don’t understand what Falun Gong is and what the persecution is. If they still think Falun Gong should be persecuted after hearing all about the truth of the matter, then that’s between them and their own conscience. I’m unclear on what you mean by transparency of Falun Gong. This website: http://www.falundafa.org has all the books and exercises. That’s pretty much Falun Gong. Our friend, above, even copied here some of his favourite extracts from the teachings. You can find a list of names on that site, people who have submitted their info of when and where they practice the exercises together around the world. It’s all done on a volunteer basis, just get together and do the exercises and read the books, anyone can come and go as they wish.

    And of course, China has no donation system. There’s not even a death row in China. Anyone executed is (supposed to be) killed within 7 days. This information is in the Kilgour-Matas report. The key people putting this forward do not practice Falun Gong. One’s a former Crown Prosecutor and former Canadian foreign minister, David Kilgour, the other is a human rights lawyer who has been given awards, David Matas. Their report is here: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ .

    GNZ: it’s not like it’s some great inconvenience they would have to go to to pull this off, you know. They can up to and over 100,000USD for each organ, and they’ve got the people sitting in the dungeons and in the labor camps, without any names, and no one knows they’re there. again, suggest taking a careful look at the evidence, above all else.

  32. Jerry Says:

    @Steve Rose #25, 29
    @S.K. Cheung #30


    All US hospitals do things in the same manner. Try google it. There were many reports on doctors cutting off organs while the person is partially alive. As long as the person is declared as brain dead, part of the nerve system can still function, such a person can still sit up, for example.

    A new trend in US and Canada is to “harvest” organs after heart dead, before brain dead is announced. This has been a hot topic.

    Steve, to which same manner do you refer? Partially alive? Hmmm… No I am not going to sift through google. Yes, part of the nervous system can still function; chickens can run around with their heads cut off.

    That is a disturbing trend to which you refer; I am not sure if this is occurring in Canada. The Washington Post reported on it (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031700963.html?sub=new). This should disturb bioethicists and doctors, and it does. At least they are having discussion, debate and arguments. And they have to ask relatives for their consent before removing the organs for donation. All of that is good. I have no idea how they conduct business in China. China is not very transparent.

    At least we know what the situation is in the US and Canada with regards to organ donation. Can we say the same for China?



    Steve, I do not see anything conclusive in Wu’s investigation. The State Dept. stated that they “found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.” But they also cautioned,

    Independent of these specific allegations, we remain concerned over China’s repression of Falun Gong practitioners. We are also concerned by reports of organ harvesting. We have raised these concerns both in our annual Human Rights Report and in discussions with the Chinese government, both in Washington and in Beijing.

    Please see above in #21.

    So much is conjecture and speculation. On both sides. SK is right. Increased transparency will help. On both sides.

    SK, maybe the Vatican will become more transparent, too? Wouldn’t that be the day? 😀

  33. GNZ Says:

    “it’s not like it’s some great inconvenience they would have to go to to pull this off, you know.”

    I don’t think I agree. I don’t think conspiracies are very easy to pull off.
    And I presume you saying that FG is the main target of this? Is there really that sort of above all else hate in china for FG?

  34. jjyz Says:

    We could chatter about this all day, but if you haven’t even taken a look at the evidence, what’s the point? I don’t know if you realise how many people in China think nowadays, but you know, some people have been so badly brainwashed that they think Falun Gong practitioners are less than human, and that it doesn’t even matter if they are slaughtered. It’s the same with executed prisoners. If they’re going to die anyway, why waste their organs? And this was even years ago, just what went on in hospitals. Doctors put on military clothes and went to prisons to get organs from executed prisoners. Falun Gong practitioners have become complete enemies of “China’s Progress,” and it is a simple step forward both in the persecution and in organ harvesting innovation. There was no change in the numbers of executions from around 2000-2005, but transplants sure went up. This isn’t so much a hate game, like, let’s see how much evil stuff we can do to these people–I think that mentality has manifested elsewhere, as in the unspeakably horrific torture methods used–but a matter of money-making and convenience. Hospitals and the military have to rely on their own funding, and there’s a couple of hundred thousand people sitting in prison there. You may think it seems like a giant conspiracy, but I imagine for many of the people involved, they may have never even considered it something so horrendous. Again, I’d advise you to look at the evidence, even cursorily. The burden is on respondents now, not on me or something. There’s this freaking mountain of evidence, no one has dealt with it, and all that people give in response is rubbish arguments about Sujiatun, Wu, and the US State Dept., none of whom have dealt with the Kilgour-Matas report. The article by John Kusumi above is a good introduction to the current, unsatisfactory, highly unresolved state of how this has been received by the mainstream. Some people are capable of doing a bit of research and working things out for themselves, some need information given to them in a warm milk bottle before they will have it.

    I’ve given the link to the report a few times, if you really care about whether this may or may not be true, just read it. That’s honestly the only way I could respond. You would be doing a disservice to yourself if you did not look at the evidence, but yet held opinions about the veracity of it.

    @Jerry, SK: It’s been said here that Falun Gong practitioners are lacking in transparency–may I ask what the basis for that remark might be?

    back to GNZ, I just remembered that I have two very concise statements of the background of the report and the evidence. I’m just going to give you the text for that right here. Of course, you should still read the report though. The formatting won’t be all that nice because there should be some bold and italic components, but you get the idea. Best.

    Organ harvesting of Falun Gong

    In March 2006 reports surfaced that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and its agencies, including the People’s Liberation Army, were conducting widespread and systematic organ harvesting of living Falun Gong practitioners. It was alleged that detained practitioners were blood and urine tested, their information stored on databases, and then matched with organ recipients. When an organ was required, it was alleged, they were injected with drugs to stop the heart, their organs removed and later sold, and their bodies incinerated.

    The first series of allegations were based on eye-witness testimony of two individuals, and directed at the Sujiatun Thrombosis Hospital in Shenyang, Liaoning province. The story received enormous media attention. After three weeks, the US State Department was allowed to conduct a formal investigation, but by that time the regime had cleaned up the hospital, and they uncovered nothing.

    Soon after the Sujiatun incident, in July 2006, former Crown Prosecutor and Canadian MP, David Kilgour, and human rights lawyer David Matas, published the findings of their own investigation, entitled “Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China.” They concluded that large numbers of Falun Gong practitioners have been victims of systematic organ harvesting, whilst still alive, and that the practice was ongoing. They state that the evidence in their report is publicly verifiable.

    Investigative reports from Sky News and BBC add evidence to the findings of the Kilgour-Matas report, and the Christian Science Monitor says the report’s evidence is circumstantial but persuasive. Two other independent investigations, including a Yale University PhD thesis, and a report by Kirk C. Allison, Associate Director of the Program in Human Rights and Medicine in the University of Minnesota, conclude that the circumstantial evidence of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China is conclusive. U.N. special rapporteur Manfred Nowak, in December 2007 said “The chain of evidence they are documenting shows a coherent picture that causes concern.”

    David Kilgour, David Matas and Vice-president of the European Parliament, Edward McMillan-Scott, now travel around the world, meeting world leaders, politicians, and human rights groups, to raise awareness of the issue. In some countries, including Australia, legislation has been passed abolishing training programs for Chinese doctors. There are now calls for entering China and conducting a full investigation of the issue, but the CCP has so far prevented this.

    “What makes it credible are the numerical gap between the reported number of transplants compared with what is possible in other countries, the short waiting times and the confidence with which operations are offered in the global health market, and the routine blood testing of the Falun Gong.” — Professor Tom Treasure, a London-based surgeon in an article in the March 2007 edition of the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, “The Falun Gong, organ transplantation, the holocaust and ourselves.”

    The allegations, if true, would represent a grotesque form of evil which, despite all the deprivations humanity has seen, would be new to this planet. The very horror makes us reel back in disbelief. But that disbelief does not mean that the allegations are untrue. – David Kilgour and David Matas

    “The source of some 41,500 organ transplants in China in the years 2000 through 2005 remains unexplained.” —The Christian Science Monitor

    The Evidence of Organ Harvesting

    The Kilgour-Matas report presents 33 strands of evidence leading to conclusion that “there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners.” Much of the evidence is publicly verifiable, and has been vetted by other independent parties.

    *Massive numbers of “missing” organs
    China’s total organ transplants before 1999 were 30,000, and between 1994 and 1999 were 18,500. Between 2000 and 2005, however, the number jumped to 60,000. There is no national organ system in China, and Chinese have a strong cultural aversion to donating organs. Traditional sources of transplants – executed prisoners, donors, the brain-dead – come nowhere near to accounting for the total number of transplants during this period. Kilgour, Matas, and others affirm that the only possible source for the surge is the population of imprisoned Falun Gong practitioners.

    *Incredibly short waiting times
    Chinese hospital websites advertised waiting times for kidneys “as short as a week and no longer than a month,” while others said “immediately.” The average time in other countries is more than 5 years. A kidney’s survival period is between 24-48 hours, and a liver’s about 12 hours. Kilgour and Matas state that only a large bank of living “donors” could account for the astonishingly short waiting times.

    *Cloak-and-dagger transplant practices
    Chinese organ recipients gave similar accounts of the organ transplant process in China. It is conducted in almost total secrecy, the recipient is not told the identity of the donor or shown written consent, the identity of the doctor and nurses are often withheld, recipients and their families are often told the time of the operation immediately before it occurs, operations take place in the middle of the night, and “the whole procedure is done on a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ basis.”

    *Telephone admissions
    Kilgour and Matas had callers phoning hospitals in China posing as family members of prospective organ recipients. In many places, doctors boasted that Falun Gong practitioners (reputedly healthy because of their practice) were the source of organs. There are recordings and phone bills for these calls, and one doctor later admitted to having been called.

    Caller: …what you used before, were they from detention centers or prisons?
    “Lu Guoping: From prisons.
    “C: Oh, prisons. And it was from healthy Falun Gong practitioners, the healthy Falun Gong right?
    “LG: Right, right, right. We would choose the good ones, because we will assure the quality of our operations.
    “C: That means you choose the organs yourselves?
    “LG: Right, right, right.” — Dr. Lu Guoping at Minzu Hospital of Guangxi Autonomous Region

    Later, in a state-sponsored propaganda piece aimed at discrediting the Kilgour-Matas report, the doctor admitted to receiving a phone call but denied its contents, but he did not know there was a recording. His later admission proves that he was the person in the original recording, admitting to going to prisons to choose Falun Gong practitioners for their organs. Matas says “this is as close to a smoking gun as we are ever likely to get.”

    *Huge profits
    In April 2006 the prices on Chinese transplant websites for a kidney averaged US$62,000, while a heart was on sale for up to US160,000. Hospitals have also been increasingly forced to fund themselves, as public health funding was slashed years prior. Further, many transplant centres and general hospitals in China are military institutions, financed by organ transplants. In 2006, Military hospital websites boasted making tens of millions of yuan in profits from the practice.

    *Medical examinations
    Falun Gong practitioners are exclusively and systematically blood and urine tested, and their organs are examined while in custody. There is no health reason for the examinations, since practitioners’ welfare is disregarded in so many other ways. Such tests are an essential step in blood and tissue matching for organ transplant.

    *Bodies with missing organs
    Practitioners are regularly killed in custody, through torture or ill-treatment. Between death and cremation, in a few cases, family members found that organs had been removed.

    Well-known China dissident John Kusumi wrote: “This is organized, systematic, machine-like evil through deliberately chosen policies of the Chinese government. The only comparable evil might be Nazi Germany’s medical experiments, performed on unwitting prisoners in World War II.”

    “Waiting times for organ transplants in China are a matter of days. Everywhere else, waiting times are measured in years”. — David Matas National Post (Canada) 23 August 2006

  35. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To jjyz:
    first off, let’s be clear. If anyone anywhere is being persecuted for their religious beliefs, that to me is wrong. So the FLG situation in China is merely a subset of that to which I just referred. So my conscience is clear, but thanks for asking.
    However, you and I clearly differ in our standards for evaluating the strength of “evidence”. “the report’s evidence is circumstantial but persuasive” – usually, to me, evidence that qualifies as the former is insufficient for procuring the latter. “The chain of evidence they are documenting shows a coherent picture that causes concern.” – and if they had real proof, I would hope that it would do more than merely “cause concern”. And hence, when I speak of transparency (and while I can’t speak on Jerry’s behalf, his opinions on this site suggest that our definitions are likely congruent; though I beg his pardon if I’ve misspoke) I mean having information that is independently verifiable, hopefully by a relatively unbiased third party (let’s say, off hand, the Red Cross). This type of transparency, IMO, is routinely lacking in many things China. And the FLG issue, being one of them things, is no different. Which is why one of my hopes is for increased transparency in all things China, and hopefully that will pertain to FLG accusations as well.

    “There are now calls for entering China and conducting a full investigation of the issue, but the CCP has so far prevented this.” – I would support such a call. But if your Kilgour report is based on something short of a full investigation, then again, to me, persuasive? Not so much. Show me the full investigation first, then we’ll talk. And the CCP is just as culpable for not allowing same. Please see above paragraph.

    Now, if you’ve seen my comments in recent months, you’ll have deduced that I’m no fan of the CCP. And at every opportunity, I would gladly throw them under the bus. To me, they have enough verifiable shortcomings to serve such purpose. I’m not at the point of having to pile onto unverified ones….yet.

  36. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Jerry:
    “SK, maybe the Vatican will become more transparent, too? Wouldn’t that be the day?” – yes that would…but I think either one of us holding our breath for same would be hazardous for our health.

    Besides, it would cause a run on dull knives…since I would think the priests with a taste for choir-boys are just as deserving of having their heads on sticks as the Sanlu dudes.

  37. jjyz Says:

    haha, Cheung, I understand your remarks on both issues. It is not often a forum remark will make me crack a smile, or even a small laugh, so good on you for that.

    The report is here: http://organharvestinvestigation.net . Again, these aren’t Falun Gong dudes. I agree that the evidence is circumstantial–it is–but it has also reached a point where I’m not even aware of any other possible scenario which explains the transplant rises. Anyway, you can check it all out for yourself. Actually, the main thing is just for more people to be aware of this, and to feel quite uncomfortable with this question of why the CCP has not responded adequately in the face of all this evidence. I expect that after looking at the report in its entirety, unbiased people will either come to the same conclusion as the authors, or hold off just short, and at least be like “this doesn’t smell right, I want answers.” The top will inevitably be blown off all this anyway at a certain point, I guess.

  38. Steve Rose Says:

    I am not the same id as “Steve”. I do not know who that is.

    Do you have proof that http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ is not owned or backed by FLG organization or supported by NED? Please post your evidences. Thanks.

  39. Steve Rose Says:

    To a few above posters,

    The issue seems to be taking organs when the person is declared as brain death or heart death, in either case parts of the body can still move or the person can still “live” with a life support system for a long time; I do not have enough knowledge to form my opinion on this issue. I also do not know chinese organ donation rules. I want to point out, it was a general medical practice, to “harvest” the organs while the person is still “alive” following your everyday concept, not the strict medical definitions. I am sure conservative Christians will have an issue with it. US hospitals do the same thing, you just do not hear about it often in the media.

    Based on that, accusing chinese hospital doing so is not very fair while all hospitals in the world do the same exact thing. However, I do not have enough evidence to prove or disprove if the chinese doctors are operating on 100% healthy FLG members. That is the accusation, I think.

    Now, if we think china is not transparent in this issue – is it because people here do not have good knowledge on chinese laws of this matter? What happens if you actually read articles and news published by chinese source and in chinese language, not from a pro-FLG English source, and then come to your conclusion? I do not think chinese hospitals must publish their practice in English and provide them for US mainstream medias for distribution. Maybe it is time to learn another language? instead of complaining about lack of transparency? Without knowledge we do not really know if it is truly lack of transparency of it is our own ignorance.

    Personally, I think FLG’s case is weak. If the Sujiatun case is dismissed with invalid evidence or lack of evidence, you can always use the same technique to create another case. If the new case is proven invalid, you can find another chinese city name to start yet a new one. If FLG can not fully, 100%, back their case in Sujiatun, their credibility is gone. If FLG does have solid evidence, why threaten Harry Wu as a butcher when Mr. Wu simply get to the opposite conclusion after his honest investigation? It is stupid for FLG to ignore Sujiatun, pretend nothing happened, and move on to a new accusation.

    Finally, to jjyz, whatever source you use; when you copy word by word, longer paragraphs from that source, the common courtesy is to add the reference. It is easy to just add the link to your postings. I personally do not think that was very polite as I found your postings are almost always using verbatim copies of other web content.

  40. jjyz Says:

    Steve, you obviously have not looked at the body of evidence for these claims. The independent report by the Canadians is here: http://organharvestinvestigation.net. Why not read it? Your questions and speculations are dealt with in there.

    Sorry about not giving links more often where appropriate. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will remember this useful piece of ‘netiquette’ in future. In cases where what I cite is not available on the internet, I will make this clear, or otherwise provide the link. Best.

  41. Wukailong Says:

    If I understand SKC correctly, he makes a point I’ve been trying to make for a long time, and that is being skeptical of both FLG and the CCP. I’ve had bad experiences with both, and I know others who’ve had too. Of course the bad experiences with FLG have mostly been along the lines of a group of practitioners calling me every evening for a week and discussing (in that case, I had written an article for a Swedish magazine, and they wanted me to whitewash it with references to “zhen shan ren” etc). The bad experiences with CCP – well, not to be told in public… 🙂

    Simple put, this demonizing match that’s been going on between both groups won’t lead to anything other than fueling shouting matches between angry nationalist youth and followers of LHZ. The CCP probably lied about their 1500-person example of people who had been seriously hurt or even died as a result of practice, when they banned the cult (you couldn’t verify the sources anyway); the FLG might be lying with some of their examples of violence in China.

    FLG is an interesting phenomenon in a sense since it is the blooming of New Age thought in China, combined with local traditions, but like many similar movements I have to say people seem to be more concerned with belief than truth.

  42. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Steve Rose:
    well, I hope doctors don’t harvest organs until someone is, for lack of a better word, functionally dead ie they no longer have the capacity to wake up and get out of bed, for example. If someone is alive only because a machine is keeping them that way, that’s not much of a life, to me.
    Also, I imagine you’d have to harvest before a person is full-on, completely dead. What’s the point of harvesting “dead” organs that no longer work, and sticking them into someone else?
    The whole point of transparency isn’t just access to information in a native tongue. If a Chinese hospital publishing in Chinese is the final word on Chinese medical practice, then so too should Xinhua be the reliable information overlord for all things China. And I’m hoping we both agree that the latter is not the case; nor should the former be. Transparency in my book is independent verification by a third party; the language of the report is hardly the issue. As a comparison, would you find Iran’s nuclear agency report of no activities in enriching uranium to be sufficient, or would you rather the IEAE’s, even if it were in Iranian?

  43. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Wukailong:
    agreed, that’s my point. Or, as jjyz says, “this doesn’t smell right, I want answers.” is the stage I’m at. But seems a bit early to issue an indictment, or to close the case.

  44. jjyz Says:

    Wukailong, I am sorry to hear about that experience, that you felt your privacy was intruded upon, or that you were annoyed. I guess when people think they have something urgent and important to get across, they’ll make that the priority and perhaps be too ready to expect others do the same. I’d like to say that the actions of some people who practice Dafa doesn’t mean that everyone who practices Dafa would do the same thing. I would probably just send an email and ask for confirmation that it was read. And of course, practitioners wouldn’t see a journalist stating that Falun Gong teaches Zhen Shan Ren as “whitewashing,” they’d see it as a simple statement of fact about Falun Gong, and like, the most basic fact about it. I’d agree, of course, and if you flip through any of the books you’d find this is what it’s all about. This is how Falun Gong practitioners understand their engagement with Falun Gong–a process of assimilating oneself to Zhen Shan Ren. Of course, if you’re calling a guy four or five nights in a row, and its not apparent that he welcomes your next call, let’s say that might not be a good idea.

    By the way, I’d never engage in a yelling match with anyone, most especially about this topic. I see those young Chinese as victims more than anything else. I certainly don’t harbour any personal, negative feelings toward them. They’ve grown up drinking wolves’ milk, in the words of Yang Jianli, and it seems its only the rare one which has escaped the poisoning. (read his excellent speech here: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-6-25/72359.html) About all I can do, and in my understanding, any Falun Gong practitioner, is to simply talk about their personal experience with the practice, how it has benefited them, and then explain the facts of the persecution. I don’t know much else, and this is pretty much all I do when this topic comes up.

    Steve (can’t see your post, but my email tells me it was placed): I’m unsure what would constitute proof that Falun Gong practitioners did not set up the organharvestinvestigation.net website. I don’t even know what would be proof that they did? Like, some photos of a guy on a computer, logged into the admin backend tweaking things, and another guy next to him, meditating? As I’ve said before, there’s no “Falun Gong organisation” to begin with, so that would be impossible. It would be like asking me to tell you about the involvement of Falun Gong practitioners with any other website. It’s an odd question, when you think about it. I have no way to resolve it for you.

    The people who are responsible for that report are listed there. I expect that they maintain the website themselves, or their assistants, or whatever. You can look up David Kilgour and David Matas. They are the serious type, not prone to making wild accusations, and in this regard their credentials are impeccable. They’re independent from Falun Gong (whatever that means), they don’t practice Falun Gong, they don’t represent Falun Gong practitioners, or the books, or the exercises, the only thing they’ve had to do with Falun Gong is publish this report. I don’t know why on earth you wouldn’t just read it and do some digging yourself–Kilgour was a Canadian parliamentarian for many years, and Matas has won awards and done consultative work with UN, Amnesty, he’s one of Canada’s top lawyers, so they’re both already public figures. The ball really is in your court.

  45. Steve Rose Says:

    I do not know. When you say FLG is not an organization, it is a joke, right? Who started and who owns epochtimes? Who gets funding from US government? Why are you pretending?

    Harry Wu also mentioned the media known as renminbao as a FLG publication which attacked him. Harry cites the inner connection between FLG organizations and US senators/CIA. If that is still not clear, you can call up the people mentioned in Harry Wu’s report. Those people represent the FLG organization.

    As you said, we can not just accept what is said in the reports; we have to dig deeper to see the political or economical beneficiaries. Harry Wu concluded the sujiatun witnesses were probably fabricating stories. So, it is very important for me to know who is behind organharvestinvestigation.net, before you conclude they are an independent source of information.

    I am not against FLG. I just want the truth; seeing how CCP and other governments can deceive people, I am not letting FLG off the hook easily. I am too old to be easily fooled.

    What also caused me wonder is jjyz claimed you dismissed Master Li’s own words as nonsense. Master Li said if a “disciple” is not following him exactly, it is worse than a non-FLG people. In other words, if you practice FLG but do not believe in him, you are evil already. How can you, as an outsider, conclude you really understand FLG and its complex relationship with CCP?

    FLG was set up from the first day as an anti-CCP organization. If you did not read Master Li’s early articles, you should. He described how evil the CCP leaders are and how to convert the CCP members to FLG instead.

    You should also read the book that talked about FLG history (book name not on top of my head, but the book is in google bookshelf). There were many other QiGong groups at the time FLG was created. These QiGong groups still exist. CCP is not after them. These QiGong groups are trying to teach their way to exercise and no political strings attached. Usually, a QiGong group has a few hundred years of history and had always had followers. The technique is developed by many generations of QiGong Masters; I am not aware any one consider themselves god. As one of the QiGong master commented, FLG does not teach breathing, which is the focus of traditional QiGong and the main reason why QiGong helps improving health. If FLG was simply invented by Master Li in his backyard by putting together a few QiGong books without knowing the breathing methods, which are hard to teach, you get what is seemingly QiGong but in fact can be harmful to your health if you are really into it. No one knows. In FLG (as a QiGong)’s case, we do not have hundreds of years of history to testify its effectiveness, like all other QiGong have. FLG’s effectiveness is in the words of Master Li and in the rotating wheel Master Li planted in your belly. But do you really believe Master Li get the skills from the gods? What makes him a qualified QiGong teacher?

    Modern people may lead a stressful life; by focusing on something different from their daily work will always help, it is like psychic healing. What I do not like to see FLG is the connection to politics. Have a good day.

  46. JD Says:

    I have no interest in the FLG but am interested in assertions that they are funded by the US government. Where do such claims come from? It should be relatively easy to provide evidence through official documentation, given the US’s broad transparency and accountability in public expenditures.

    Kindly point the way to the evidence.

  47. Steve Rose Says:


    I do not have enough time to dig everything up. The following is a quick link; if you are not satisfied, let me know and I need to spend some time to find what I have found before.

    “It appears over 6 million dollars have been funneled to Falun Gong via this group in 5 years:”


  48. Steve Rose Says:


    I do not know why my posts does not show up immediately. Anyway here is a link:

  49. jjyz Says:

    To Steve: I was surprised to read your post. I’ve practised Falun Gong for four years, I am a dedicated and sincere practitioner. You can read a long post I wrote above, which took over an hour to write, about my experience with Falun Gong and how I came to practice it, and what I think about it. I don’t have any interest in politics, I’m not a member of any group or organisation. I just want the persecution to stop, and I spend my spare time doing what I can to bring that about. Falun Gong hasn’t cost me a red cent, and nor have I joined up to any club. Also, I never dismissed Master Li’s words as nonsense, and I would never do that. I have experienced the truth of Falun Gong for myself. The proof is in the pudding, and I don’t need anyone to tell me about that. It has nothing to do with any breathing methods, or what you have referred to. I know Falun Gong is real because I have experienced it, it’s as simple as that.

    The Epoch Times was founded by Falun Gong practitioners. That doesn’t make Falun Gong an organisation. People who do the same activities engage in collective enterprises all the time. What I’m saying is that you can practice Falun Gong at home and not ever meet another practitioner, you’re still doing Falun Gong. Falun Gong is a discipline, not a movement. It is an internal practice, not an external one. Many people who do not practice Falun Gong also write for The Epoch Times, and only a tiny fraction of the total Falun Gong practitioners around the world will ever contribute to the Epoch Times. The Epoch Times is a business in society, it can’t represent Falun Gong. It’s like calling Platonism an organisation, it makes no sense. Anyone can read Plato’s books, and readers in different parts of the world can get together off their own backs, hang out, run a newspaper, whatever they want. Some other guy in Indonesia may have never even heard of that newspaper and the cool stuff other Platonists are doing over in Paris, he just reads Plato himself at home. Falun Gong’s the same, you just apply yourself to it and elevate spiritually. What people do in society is what they do out in society. There’s no hierarchy, no one in charge, no organisational link between practitioners in different places. It is called 大道無形, Great Way Without Form.

    I’m also sorry to tell you so directly, but what you say about Master Li’s early lectures is patently untrue. I don’t know where you heard that. They are all available on the internet at http://www.falundafa.org, I’ve read all of them numerous times, and there is simply nothing of what you suggest in them at all, about overthrowing the CCP, or seeking to ‘convert’ CCP members. There’s not even a concept of ‘conversion’ in the teachings of Falun Gong. Master Li talks about predestined relationship, and says that practitioners should be sure never to impose something on anyone. Anyone can search or read the books for themselves to find this out. On the other points, I don’t have any responses to your negative remarks about Master Li, or about what you believe about Falun Gong. I can only relay my understanding gained from reading the books, which I have done above. I don’t agree with what you say in your second last paragraph, I don’t think it is based on anything, and I don’t know what makes you write it–but that’s about all I can say.

    Below I’ll copy some links to a set of four articles by Leeshai Lemish, which may also help you to understand the situation from the perspective of a Falun Gong practitioner.

    I might also point out that it’s untrue that any other qigong group is able to practice freely in China. Other qigong groups were attacked and made to disband at the same time as the persecution of Falun Gong. Christians who want to worship in their own houses are also under attack, so are petitioners, and anyone who stands up for any of these groups, like lawyers or human rights defenders. They’re all thrown in jail and given a taste of the electric baton. Just for a writing a critical letter to Hu and Wen you can get put under house arrest, have your movement restricted, or eventually be thrown in jail and subjected to torture. Even the parents of the children who were crushed in the quake have copped it, as they attempt to form some group to bring the CCP to account.

    To JD: of course, there is no such evidence.

    Leeshai’s articles:

  50. Steve Rose Says:

    read here the interview of Harry Wu by VOA, in chinese.
    It is almost comical. FLG needs serious proof on the sujiatun case.

  51. Steve Rose Says:

    jjyz allowed me to spend more time to dig up the old articles I read about FLG. Here is a good summary from Asiaweek (of Time magazine).


    “Li instructs practitioners to go over his books again and again, without evaluation.” Moreover, “all the followers I interviewed recognise Li as the sole master. In fact many followers’ homes display a picture of him surrounded by a halo. They do not question his teaching that humanity is so rotten it is in danger of annihilation in our lifetime, and that only faithful adherents can be saved.”

    Following a call by Li for “disciples to step forward in the face of life and death” five followers set themselves on fire in Tiananmen Square in January 2001. Other instances were reported later.

    “For two hours we delved into a world of corrupted souls, prehistoric civilizations and looming alien possession…as we read each word aloud: ‘Anyone who uses a computer has already been coded by aliens. This is absolutely true. But our followers do not have this problem, because I’ve already cleared them’. (Said one follower) ‘Our master said the human body is perfect, and that’s why aliens want to conquer us’”.

    @JD, I still do not know why some of my postings are not showing up. Anyway, here is the link to the US tax payers’ support on FLG.

  52. Steve Rose Says:


    Hope this works. Take care.


  53. jjyz Says:

    I made a long post in response to your earlier comment, it has not appeared yet. I don’t care what Time magazine says. I don’t know what you expect me to say in response to this, or if you expect a response. What I’m saying is that the journalist does not reflect my understanding of my engagement with Falun Gong practice, as a practitioner. He has chosen parts of Zhuan Falun that he finds relevant or interesting, put them in his own words, given his own interpretation to them. I do not find what he writes as an accurate expressions of my beliefs. Anyone can read the books and say what they want, that doesn’t mean that they have accurately expressed the thoughts of the people they met, nor does it mean that they represent my understanding of Falun Gong, as a practitioner. I believe everything Master Li has said in his books to be true, I’m allowed to do that, and I don’t care what other people think. If someone was genuinely interested I would sit down with them for a while and explain why I understand things the way I do. And to be honest, this has nothing at all to do with the question of the unjust persecution of Falun Gong practitioners. I’m kind of sad and confused at how some people take up this situation and respond to it. People are getting tortured to death for their peaceful beliefs, let’s deal with that first, shall we? Then we can say what we like about those beliefs, and ridicule them all day long. The point is that practitioners be let out of labor camps and jails, and stop being tortured to death. I can’t see why you wouldn’t make that a priority in your investigations.

    Finally, the faked self immolation on Tiananmen square is a notorious example of what the CCP is capable of to frame Falun Gong practitioners. It’s universally condemned. The journalists remark is quite off-base, inaccurate, insulting, and unwittingly helps the CCP with its propaganda.

  54. Steve Rose Says:

    I might also point out that it’s untrue that any other qigong group is able to practice freely in China. Other qigong groups were attacked and made to disband at the same time as the persecution of Falun Gong. Christians who want to worship in their own houses are also under attack, so are petitioners,

    Christians are not QiGong, are they? Why do you always change the subject like that? When did FLG start to represent all religions in China? Master Li said, and you should know by heart, FLG is not a religion.

    You still need to answer if Master Li is qualified as a QiGong teacher? Why didn’t he develop his knowledge over many generations like the other QiGong; did he get his skills from the gods, or he taught FLG to the gods; and why does not FLG teach the most important thing in QiGong, breathing techniques?

    Anti-CCP: don’t be naive. FLG builds it popularity in the West based on anti-communism. Who else NED, Albert Einstein Instititue, or the likes provide funding to? You can not even finish one message without mentioning torture from CCP, can you? Just googled it and FLG’s writing that is anti-CCP is everywhere:

    If epochtime is not a FLG publication, why did FLG fund it?
    Here’s the money trail found in non-profit declarations (Form 990, Page 2, Part III c): Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004:
    Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004:

    NED, AEI, CIA, are not only behind FLG, they are also behind Tibet independence, “Save Darfur”, for geopolitical gains over China. And US payer is funding CIA and therefore NED for their cause.

  55. JD Says:

    Thanks for the info. The situation isn’t clear as the evidence is indirect, and the source making the strongest assertion seems in no way impartial. Even if true, it looks rather innocuous. I don’t yet understand why the FLG receives so much at the expense of so many more important issues.

  56. Steve Rose Says:


    Yes, the reason to set up NED is the negativity brought by CIA the name. NED is still backed by US government financially. http://www.ned.org/publications/07annual/PDFs/AR_Financials07.pdf
    NED directly provides funding to the organizations such as “Reporters Without Borders”, “BBC World Service”, “China Information Center” (see Harry Wu’s report).

    “Friends of falun gong” is the proxy organization that provides direct funding to FLG activities, including media such as New Tang TV station and epochtimes. This has been evident in FOFG’s tax filings.

    The link between NED and FOFG is based on the people who served as directors and the founders. I do not know a way to dig deeper as FOFG does not publish an annual report online. Maybe someone else familiar with this matter can trace it down.

    I can see both organization exist for a reason; and as long as they present the facts, they have my support to solve the world’s problems. But history proves Epochtimes is highly unreliable and people from FLG are not seeing the absurdity in Master Li’s theory. This has definitely hurt the chinese democracy movement as a whole. We need reliable and trustworthy reports!

  57. jjyz Says:

    Friends of Falun Gong isn’t even run by Falun Gong practitioners, hence the name.

  58. JD Says:

    I don’t think there’s anything particularly nefarious about providing funding to NGOs. I wholeheartedly agree with your interest in the “facts”, or at least a good faith effort to present relatively balanced information. Of course, Chinese state media is similarly unreliable and absurdly damaging to the Chinese people, so there seems to be an interesting parallel to be drawn. I guess the FLG and CCP simply deserve each other.

  59. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To JD:
    “I guess the FLG and CCP simply deserve each other.” – yep.

  60. Charles Liu Says:

    Steve is right, Friends of Falun Gong is a quasai-government organization. FoFG is founded by fmr. Congressman Tom Lanto’s wife Annette Lantos:


  61. Charles Liu Says:

    Steve @56, here’s the latest non-profit disclosure (Form 990) from Friends of Falun Gong, where Mrs. Annette Lanto’s name is removed, but Ambassador Mark Palmer’s name remains:


    You’ll find that FoFG has given various FLG groups another 2 million in 2006 (over 8 million since 2001.) I would not be suprised if this quasai-government group have pumped over 10 million dollars to wage a PR war in US public opinion front, leading up to the Olympics.

  62. jjyz Says:

    Is that remark supposed to mean that Falun Gong practitioners deserve to be tortured to death by the CCP, or how are we to interpret it?

  63. Charles Liu Says:

    These facts show who’s paying for all this anti-Chinese propaganda. As an American I think this is worse than paying for the Iraq war; I don’t think my tax dollar should be spent on either.

  64. FOARP Says:

    Jesus Crist! – Admin, you closed down the other FLG thread because it became equally laden with FLG/CCP wingnuts, why not this one? Charles Liu seems to love arguing with these guys – if you can call it ‘arguing’. I always thought there had to be at least some degree of give-and-take for it to be a proper argument, but they argue without reference to what the other is saying – it’s like they’re arguing with their own mirror image!

  65. FOARP Says:

    Guys – don’t tell me you’re actually reading each other’s ultra-long comments, because I know you’re not!

  66. GNZ Says:

    As an American…., worse?
    Charles, I think you may be in danger of loosing perspective here.

    This is just the usual sort of stuff that China and USA get up to, really, making donations to the friends of FLG looks to be one of the more benign things.

  67. admin Says:

    Thread closed