Fool's Mountain: Blogging for China

391 Responses to “Lou Jing: Racism Gone Wild?”

1. S.K. Cheung Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 6:38 am

   Wow. This would serve as a good wake up call for those who in the past have suggested that Chinese somehow aren’t capable of racism, or something to that effect. It is encouraging to see that some people have come to this young woman’s defense. It is far more discouraging, however, to read some of the mindless vitriol offered by some of those apparent neanderthals. What I couldn’t figure out from your post is whether decent human beings or neanderthals were more prevalent (at least among the subgroup who posted online on the sites you described).

   You are very kind to define racism in 2 ways. To me, racism is deplorable, period. There may be things that might serve to explain it, but in no way/shape/form do any of these things excuse it.

2. Jason Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 7:29 am

   @SKC

   Aren’t you a little harsh there?. You are grouping some mindless internet users to one group of people. And that’s unfair. And especially online, people can hide away of what they say. It’s like saying Americans on the internet calling Chinese “chinks,” and “yellow peril” concludes that Americans are racist.

3. dewang Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 8:17 am

   Hi Steve,

   Thanks for doing this post. Btw, Lou Jing is beautiful, articulate, and a seemingly wonderful person. I highly recommend FM readers to watch her interview with NetEase:

   http://news.163.com/09/0913/22/5J4GFANS00012Q9L.html

   As you watch the interview, you will see the qualities I just talked about. Every Chinese should be extremely proud of her. I closed my eyes listening to parts of her interview – she’s every bit Chinese. I can hear her Chinese values.

   She’s interested in the media business, and with her demeanor, confidence, and good looks, I think she will be very successful at it, in China.

   Steve, regarding the litany of stupid comments:

   1. I am very disappointed by those making such comments.

   2. Many readers over at China Smack are some of the most imature and ignorant people you can find. I’d compare them to some of the readers over at Gizmodo.com or Digg.com:

   http://gizmodo.com/5256556/meizu-pondering-follow-up-to-m8-with-3g-gps-and-a-5+megapixel-camera#comments

   These are equally ignorant people, and I wouldn’t say they are representative of Americans.

   I hope you get a chance to dig further and reach into China’s blogsphere and get a broader sampling of the “views” in China.

   3. I read that many Chinese netizens were upset with the adultery story of her mother. Culturally, I think adultery is still a taboo. Not that there is any excuse for not making a distinction between this story and Lou Jing.

   4. I agree with your observation – the average Chinese still has little exposure to other races – kind of like the American Midwest.

   Perhaps this Lou Jing controversy is a great platform to bring the issue of racism in China to the fore. Based on how I see the Chinese media is handling this issue, they have been very helpful. That’d be helpful too in the relationship amongst the 56 ethnic groups.

4. pug_ster Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 12:07 pm

   Steve,

   The problem with Chinasmack is that it attracts the lowest of the low to make stupid comments. So anybody who don’t give a damn can make any dumb comments as they choose. Yes, there’s racism in China as racism exists in other countries.

   As what dewang says, I think the comments are mostly aimed at Lou Jing’s mother and absent father (whomever he is) as being irresponsible parents which upsets the social fabric within the Chinese society. I think you can relate this to the recent ‘Balloon Boy’ controversy.

5. Raj Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 1:10 pm

   Steve

   I agree with you that the treatment she received was awful and should be condemned.

   Am I correct in thinking that the presenter expressed surprised she spoke Mandarin well?

   SKC (1)

   I think you’re referring to someone’s comment – Allen’s? – that Chinese aren’t racist, just politically incorrect. Perhaps that person would like to modify their comments.

   pug_ster (4)

   I don’t think Steve was referring to the comments made on the Chinasmack website. He was talking about the comments re-posted on the website as an example of the responses made in regads to Lou Jing.

6. Bantú Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 1:11 pm

   Isn’t she showing some kind of weird attitude in her statement by clarifying her father is not African but American? Does being American and not African make him any better, and less deserving of racist insults than if he were from Benin?

7. Hurting the feelings of the Chinese people Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 1:12 pm

   Most Chinese have had little to no interaction with other races, with the possible exception of a few Caucasians. The racism they exhibit is the racism of ignorance.

   I travelled on a bus in Sichuan from Xichang to Bowa. In the east Sichuan (Xichang: Han) they are racist. In the west of Sichuan (Bowa:Tibetan) they don’t discriminate. Do they have more interaction with other races in Bowa compared to Xichang? I don’t think so. The Han have a cultural prejudice against waiguoren. The Tibetan welcome ‘Inji’

8. A Chinese Man Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pm

   wow~ She’s hot! No matter if she’s a white girl or a black girl, as long as she’s hot, she’s a good girl. lol

   Well, to be serious, it’s not fair to use this topic to evaluate Chinese racism. Too many things involved here: 1) Adultery, no explanation needed; 2) Nationalism, her father is an African AMERICAN, not African African; 3) Internet Stupidity, as you can see from all those awful comments from white ppl on YouTube — an universal problem.

   Because of the third point, we also can’t expect any logic from those so-called Netizens. As a wise person might state his hatred of adultery and of those men from developed countries loaded with money going to poor countries for orgies, but would not attack her or her father because of their race. However, as those comments made on YouTube by ppl from your race, you can’t expect internet fools to do wise things.

   And, ‘Chinese are not capable of racism’ is a lie.

   Something has nothing to do with the attack on this hot girl:
   Apparently, after all the suppression of all sorts of ‘black ppl’ (Africans or indigenous) and movements against racism in the western world, you guys are much more sensitive about racism than we are. After a few weeks in relationship, my caucasian partner told me that I was a bit racist, coz I always specify everyone’s race, but I didn’t feel it a problem at all. Now, I’ve completely adapted to your standard of racism and I know very well how to avoid annoying ppl in public, but I’ve NEVER changed the way I talk to my partner. I still say ‘that white guy/chick’ a lot, but only with her. She thinks it’s just the way I talk and she loves me and all my ways of doing things.

   Linguistically, when we talk about someone white or black, we refer to him as ‘that black/white guy’. This nation has not learned to say only ‘that guy’; it hasn’t learnt to blame someone without mentioning his group identity. China hasn’t ever had a deep root of modern liberalism (as in European liberalism, quite different from US or AUS), and they don’t have the habit of talking about a person as an individual — they love group identity so much that no matter if they praise you or insult you, they refer to your group identity. So how many ppl in these comments, when they talk about the African guy, are actually reflecting racism per se? I don’t know, but not as many as you think, for sure.

   And this burst of ‘racism’ is good for China, I think. Since we don’t have this liberalism tradiation, we need to expose social tensions in an agonistic way, and then we learn. Indeed, this is better than covering up all the tensions with liberalist doctrines, which only produces cleverly disguised racists, such as Samuel Huntington.

9. Jerry Says:
   October 21st, 2009 at 2:26 pm

   @Steve, @S.K. Cheung #1, @Jason #2, @dewang #3, @Raj #5

   Steve, I am with SK on this. There may be 2 kinds or levels of racism. But that is giving racism too much wiggle room. Racism is deplorable. Period! Hate speech is deplorable. Period! No excuses! No matter where it occurs! Period! This is the reason that B’nai Brith started the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in 1913.

   Steve, one question I ask is, “Where is Hu or Wen?” (I know, it sounds like an Abbot and Costello routine) I ask again, “Where is Hu or Wen? Where are Hu’s and Wen’s supposed vaunted leadership capabilities?”

   Earlier this year, an African-American, Henry Louis Gates, a Harvard professor, was arrested at his own house. The police officer was suspended. The police union opposed the suspension. Barack Obama made an off-the-cuff remark. The rant-osphere/wacko-sphere went nuts in the US. Barack intervened and helped calm down the mess.

   Seems like the Chinese CCP leaders are “missing in action”.

   Jason, you wrote to SK, “You are grouping some mindless internet users to one group of people.”

   Jason, I don’t think SK is making any generalization about Chinese people.

   Dewang, you wrote, “I hope you get a chance to dig further and reach into China’s blogosphere and get a broader sampling of the “views” in China.”

   I can’t speak for SK, but I stay away from all but the more responsible blogs in the US blogosphere. Too many times I have found the blogosphere tends to be more like the rant-osphere and/or wacko-sphere. I suspect that China’s is very similar and thus not worth my time. I have gone out a few times to the Chinese blogosphere and found the experience equally mind-numbing in comparison to the US.

   “I read that many Chinese netizens were upset with the adultery story of her mother.”

   I don’t have any problem with people respectfully disagreeing about the mother’s adultery. It is just that some people are spewing vitriol.

   “Culturally, I think adultery is still a taboo.”

   Interesting. This is where I suspect sexism, vitriolic sexism. The mother, a married woman, had an affair with a black man, had a black-skinned daughter, her husband divorced her and, years later, it is now public news. And she is taking a lot of flack. So why should men be able to engage in “er nai” and not have a certain part of their anatomy figuratively nailed to a wall? Isn’t this hypocrisy on display?

   China has a racial problem and a sexism problem. Yes, Raj. I, too, think that there is a racial problem, not just a PC problem.

10. buru Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    1.Well, knowing that PRC is a regulated society, my inference is that the TV presenters were perfectly at ease while asking those thoroughly racist and insensitive questions–prob because the greater public and Government thought likewise and they had nothing to fear consequently?

    2.By same reasoning the lay bloggers had a gala time insulting mom & daughter– because they knew the regulators of their blogs would not object. Or am i wrong?

    …a similar but milder version happened in Indian Idol (a singing Talent TV show) in which the competitor, a Mongoloid girl, was made fun-of by the Indian presenter for her ‘chinky’ eyes ;But the chorus of protest was audible here, and eventually she went on to win the Show! 🙂

11. FOARP Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    This whole post is just too blatantly comment-bait. The FOARP isn’t biting, but he will be chuckling from the sidelines. That is all (disappears in mysterious cloud of green smoke).

12. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    As a woman, I am deeply sadden by the level of attacks on this poor girl and her mother. No matter what her mother did, her mother dealt with the consequences and raised her daughter by herself. And it is none of the audience’s business.
    I went to her blog and I can tell she was sad by the level of criticism on her mother and on her skin color. People think because of her skin color, her performances are horrible and she has no talent. Some other people think she should not talk about her background and keep that to herself because they think she should be ashamed of her self and her mother for having an affair. (What is done is done so what?)
    I was happy to see that Dewang is correct in that don’t group people together (however aren’t you being a little hypocritical when it comes to generalizing the “west”?) their opinions are all different. But the majority of people who left comments on her blog who are more encouraging are overseas Chinese not the mainland Chinese audiences.
    Whether or not this type of racism is driven by ignorance or not, it is sad and not right.

    As for her mother’s affair, I agree with Jerry, if a Chinese man can have a second wife, what right do they have in criticizing this woman for an event that happened decades ago?

13. FOARP Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    “But the chorus of protest was audible here, and eventually she went on to win the Show!”

    Okay, so my above-it-all attitude lasted exactly 5 minutes, I’ll bite. Lou Jing didn’t win the show because her singing truly sucks. You can talk about racism all you like, I think it definitely was a factor in this whole thing, but her singing was simply atrocious. There’s no way she should have gone any further.

14. Abel Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Jerry:
    “Interesting. This is where I suspect sexism, vitriolic sexism. The mother, a married woman, had an affair with a black man, had a black-skinned daughter, her husband divorced her and, years later, it is now public news. And she is taking a lot of flack. So why should men be able to engage in “er nai” and not have a certain part of their anatomy figuratively nailed to a wall? Isn’t this hypocrisy on display?”

    Aha, seems you can find these men to nail them to the wall? You seem to have forgot the other party of the adultery — why is Lou’s American father still at large? The task of digging him out and making a equal gender relation is now given to you! pls do find hime!

    “er nai” is itself a negative word blaming both the woman and the man. Also, among my generation, we accept the fact that women can have “er ye”. The problem is not sex but socio-political — a rich HK businesswoman or Wu Yi (when she was still in power) can well have “er ye”. “er nai” is closely related to the verb “bao” — “bao ernai”. If you’re familiar with Chinese internet/youth culture, you’d know ppl often say “not everyone can bao ernai!” — usually said by poor/single guys lamenting their fate (often ironically).

    So now, at least in my generation, if you’re rich, come and bao me.

15. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    For those of you want to see various different point of view here it is from qq.com:
    http://view.news.qq.com/zt/2009/loujing/index.htm

16. toto Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    COMMENT DELETED FOR RACIST REMARKS

17. Jerry Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    @Abel #13

    “Aha, seems you can find these men to nail them to the wall?”

    Nope. I did not say that at all. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.

    “why is Lou’s American father still at large? why is Lou’s American father still at large? The task of digging him out and making a equal gender relation is now given to you! pls do find hime!”

    The father does seem to be a twit. I have no intention of finding him. I leave it to you. I am returning your gift back to you, unopened and unwanted! ::LMAO::

    Your whole answer seems to avoid and evade the whole question of the hypocrisy on display. So typical. So mediocre. So garden-variety and unoriginal. Thanks for the dodgy answer. ::LOL::

18. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    @Abel
    The problem is: A man has an affair, a woman has to forgive him because he “made a mistake that every man makes” so that makes it ok in a Chinese society.
    When a woman have an affair: “She must be foreign loving wants to get out of China” “Her morals are corrupt” “She is an embarrassment to all Chinese women”

    QQ.com’s audience said “we object to them using this issue to become famous” But the problem is that they were asked of where she was from, what is her background and she talks about how her mother is her greatest support, and talking about her story and her past experience that was interpreted as using it to become famous. I don’t think that the reaction would be too big if her affair was with either a Chinese man or a white man.

19. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Thanks for all the comments. I believe there are really three issues here:

    1) Racism
    2) Sexism
    3) What is the definition of being “Chinese”?

    Racism – A few of us here can remember the bad old days in the States when racism was the norm. Growing up, I heard racial slurs all the time and in most circles they weren’t considered out of place. That’s the racism of ignorance I was talking about. Jerry grew up in a world where Jews weren’t as accepted in the general culture as much as they are today. When you’re the one bearing the brunt of racist attitudes, it doesn’t really matter whether they come from ignorance or hatred, they both hurt just the same so Jerry’s point is well taken.

    But having seen the changes that took place in the States since my childhood, those changes took place because of interaction between races. Most of that interaction was spurred on by the dominant race and it’ll be the same in China, where a minority of Han will reach out to minority races and try to change the attitudes of their fellow Han because they believe it’s the right thing to do. The point I was trying to make was that the racism of ignorance is curable while the racism of hatred is not.

    Yes, I realize that sites like ChinaSmack aren’t exactly a cross-section of typical Chinese opinion and anything goes, but what I was trying to illustrate wasn’t racism per se but the NATURE of that racism. Some felt that because her father was black, he was automatically African but of course he was American. One of my childhood friends did the “Roots” thing years ago and went back to Africa, I think it was Ghana, to discover his own roots. What he found was that there was no sense of being African or even of being black; everything was tribal. He told me later that he went to discover his roots and found his roots were American. Lou Jing’s true roots are Chinese.

    The one consistent message that seemed to pop up, and I’ve also run across personally this when I was in China, was that blacks were somehow “different” than Chinese and Caucasians, as if they were another species. Their kids could marry Asians or Caucasians, but they would feel aghast if their kids married or even dated blacks or Hispanics… “just too different” was the usual reply. Hmm… I heard the same thing in the States when I was a kid.

    Sexism – An Israeli friend of mine once told my wife that I was the only guy he knew that went to China on a regular basis and didn’t have a mistress there. “Chinese wives”, “second wives”, “mistresses”, regardless of what you want to call them, this kind of behavior is rampant in China. Beijing businessmen have mistresses in Shanghai and Shenzhen, Taiwanese businessmen have mistresses in whatever Chinese city they live in. So what were the comments criticizing the mother for? Having an affair or having an affair with a black man? It seems to me that while they complained about adultery, the other message was complaining about adultery with a black rather than a Chinese man, so was it sexism mixed with racism?
    
    What is the definition of being Chinese? – This is something no one has yet addressed. Many commentators felt she shouldn’t be in the competition because she wasn’t really “Chinese” so she didn’t belong there. What makes a person truly Chinese? If she was born in China, raised in China, fluent in Chinese and grew up with a Chinese parent and Chinese friends, wouldn’t that make her Chinese? Or is the perception of being “Chinese” based more on how you look?

    Regardless of your point of view, I thank Jerry for pointing out that when you’re on the receiving end, racism is racism. This girl had to hear very nasty racial slurs, was subject to some ignorant questioning during the contest and has since had to deal with issues that should have never come up. Like Rosa Parks, she probably didn’t expect to be the center of attention but she seems to have handled it well.

    BTW, from what I have read the father didn’t know Lou Jing’s mother was pregnant before he left China and might not realize he even has a daughter there. That doesn’t excuse the adultery but might explain why he isn’t in her life.

    @ FOARP #13: I guess that’s what Shanghaiist referred to as “offkeyitis”. 😛

20. Jimmy Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Steve at #18 hit the point in the head, but the fundamental problem is that the Chinese society as a whole never mixed with other races. China has to learn to live with other races the hard way like in the States, and it will be a painful process full of incidents like this.

    Edit: If her singing the truly bad and she still wins, then it just shows how ill prepared China is in dealing with race relations. Countering public sentiment with blunt force affirmative action is just using positive racism against negative racism.

    And to toto #15, WTF does Communism/Chinese IQ has to do with racism???? Nice of you to use racism against Chinese here.

21. colin Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    While there surely are racists in China, one needs to consider the fact that she made it into the spotlight in the first place speaks to the general acceptance (or apathy) of the chinese populace.And like many have said, the internet brings out the extremes. You’ll find plenty of obama cursing US forums.

    That all being said, here’s an additional tidbit. Apparently, her mother hid the affair from her then married chinese husband. When the girl came out, the mother said it was because of herbal medicines that turned LJ black. Her cuckolded father bought the story for 3 years and raised her his own until his lying eyes could no longer handle it and bolted.

    Also, family is a very important concept in chinese culture, and I’d say at least half of criticisms on her are due to her perverse family story. Not necessarily fair to be dumped on her, but she’s the clear and visible target of this affair, especially after going on national TV. It’s not wrong for a society to be critical of these marital perversions. Unfortunately for LJ, she has become the lightening rod for it.

22. Roadblock Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    This lady is clearly causing a bit of an identity crisis among the Chinese. China, in the Chinese mind, is not just a defined territory. It is more importantly a people and a history. It is a paternal lineage of inbreeding and xenophobia, which, ever since the last ice age, has been struggling against the barbarians, and claiming exclusive property rights to a piece of turf in East Asia. Just take a look at the Great Wall. Can anyone find a more conspicuous symbol in the world of ethnic segregation? And who can possibly be more proud of it than the Chinese? Americans may implement forced integration by their law in their public realm. But segregation remains a cherished and celebrated Chinese virtue. Even today, the Chinese law still defines citizenship as purely jus sanguinis: a rather uncommon practice in the 21st century. We Chinese are Chinese culturally, legally, AND by blood. And we are rightfully proud of it. Therefore, it should hardly be surprising that the Chinese public is deeply disturbed by this conceited, shallow, and shameless black half-Chinese. Even the pure concept of a non-yellow Chinese is a frightening thought. Besides, this girl does not know how to sing at all. She is merely capitalizing her skin color. But do not forget: This is a contest of “Oriental Angels”, not Afro-Gweilo. A “black Oriental angel” would be a contradictory term. One can either be an Oriental, or have black skin. Those are not compatible attributes.

    Anyways, I do not like racism, and I do like yellow Chinese.

23. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    @Steve,

    I think Toto’s comment #16 is inappropriate and if you can comment this out please.

    FOARP,

    Chinese’s government won’t step into this ‘issue’ as there is no crime involved. Seriously, when this type of issue has been involved, they shouldn’t step into this as it might feed into some type of media circus.

    Steve,

    The problem with the certain degree of anonymity of the internet is that people say stuff that they would not say in front of their friends and family because in most cases what you say there would probably not come back to you in real life. Like the commenter in #16, people would make lewd and racist statements and the most you can do is to censor them. Even here in the US, Canada and rest of the EU, most of the discussion of race happens in living rooms and not public forums as it should.

    Sexism is also alive and well in the US. I’m sure that if a married woman having an affair and having a child would go against many conservative Christian, Jewish, and muslim’s values and considered this as morally reprehensible.

24. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    @Roadblock 22,

    As far as I know, your comments pertaining the China is basically 15th century (IE great wall, inbreeding and such) when other civilizations has the same kind of practice.

    You probably don’t know Chinese history of why such ‘xenophobia’ happened in the first place with other countries basically carved out China from early 1800’s to 1949.

25. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    @ pug_ster #23: Thanks for pointing that out to me. That comments appeared while I was writing my post so I missed it. Done and done.

    You’re correct in that there is anonymity on the net and in people’s living rooms, but I’ve also heard plenty of comments when in both China and Taiwan that weren’t quite as blatant as these comments but still expressed the same attitudes. Racism does exist in China as it exists in every country, yet the degree of racism based on ignorance is quite high in my experience. Trying to say racism doesn’t exist because certain internet comments aren’t representative just ignores the issue.

    Your example in the US isn’t about sexism. Sexism is where men and women are treated differently. If a man in the US cheats on his wife, he is also considered morally reprehensible, isn’t he? When last I was in China, men having affairs were not only not condemned, they paraded their mistresses around for others to see as a sign of their wealth and success. I believe this is what miaka was trying to point out, that there is a double standard in China regarding married men and women who have affairs.

    The question is… if Lou Jing’s father was Chinese but she was conceived in the same way, would she have even been asked about it? The morality would have been exactly the same, she just would have had a different appearance. The other point is that Lou Jing did not have an affair and certainly wasn’t responsible for the circumstances of her birth. She only answered questions about it that were asked him on the program. How can she be at fault?

    @ Roadblock #22: You wrote, “This is a contest of “Oriental Angels”, not Afro-Gweilo. A “black Oriental angel” would be a contradictory term. One can either be an Oriental, or have black skin. Those are not compatible attributes.”

    I always thought Orientals were people born in the Orient. I didn’t realize it was a race issue. Did you know that the original meaning of the term “Orient” meant anything outside the “Occident”, which was Western Europe? Did you know that Turkey, Egypt, the Middle East, etc. were all considered the Orient?

    I have met Chinese people who were darker than many African Americans I know. Are they not considered Oriental?

    A “black Oriental angel” isn’t contradictory at all. “Angel” refers to her personality, “black” refers to her skin color and “Oriental” refers to the land of her birth. She is an oriental with half African American ancestry. They are only contradictory if you are racist.

    The question still remains… what does it mean to be “Chinese”?

26. Nimrod Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    I came across this a few weeks ago actually and didn’t have much time to write about this. While I understand Steve’s point of view on this, I think there is a lot more to this case and merely identifying “racism” is perhaps too simplistic — that is one of many facets, and a small one at that, albeit it is important and central to this discussion. But I also remember there was another case with a Chinese/black mixed volleyball player who, while also elicited some underlying “racism”, did not reach this level of vitriol. What unleashed the “trashing” — race was a convenient target — were some other cultural phenomena, so these I will write about.

    A simple search on the name Lou Jing reveals a wide range of opinions, including support for her (she is an idol to her many fans, after all) and self-inspection on the very racism and identity issues we are discussing. But also there is this:

    “中华网论坛十周年–娄靖被骂主要不是因为肤色，而是因为无耻–网友影响 …‎”
    “Lou Jing is attacked not for her skin color but for her shamelessness”

    Let’s give a rundown of the kind of things involved that don’t have much to do with race.

    She appeared on TV with her mother to tell her story. Apparently some people thought she had no talent and her only claim to fame was her “life story”, or her mother’s story of adultery, since her mother jointly appeared and presented this in a way that was perhaps bold for the Chinese audience. Usually this sort of stuff one keeps to oneself.

    There is also the claim from people who lived around Lou’s family in Shanghai that everybody in the neighborhood knew who they were (at that time it was very rare of course) and that Lou’s mother is not being entirely truthful, that the father was an African exchange student at a local college in the 1980s, and not an African American, of which there were basically none at that time. The odd claim by Lou that her father was an American struck some people as trying to gain a better image via association with “America” at the expense of misrepresentign one’s true background.

    There is also the stereotypical (and wrong) notion among certain people in China that Shanghai women are “loose” with foreigners (of all races, even, say, Japanese). This is a recent cultural meme internal to China and would have contributed to the attacks on Lou’s mother, who some could say was ahead of her time.

    In any case, these are some complexities to keep in mind. Yes, there are xenophobic and racist tendencies here, but let’s keep in mind why they have manifested to this extent here as well. In some sense, I think Lou Jing and her mother are attacked as the “other” due to the fact that people did not consider them to act like model Chinese would act. Perhaps that’s a harsh standard but in my observation that could very well contribute to some feeling that she is not “Chinese in every way except for her looks and skin color.”

27. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Excellent comment, Nimrod!

28. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    @Nimrod 26,

    +1 I agree. I think there’s certain kind of shamelessness happening of her trying to get into TV is not to sing, rather just to attract attention, just like the Balloon boy incident here in the US.

29. buru Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    #22 Roadblock would have been right @home with the Nazis, or the Imperial Japanese occupying China in the 30s… and to think such a person still exist today!

30. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    @Nimrod
    I read the whole story, but the woman paid her price having to raise her daughter alone and having to live with the shame of having an affair. With that said, if the gender roles were switched do you think there would be just as much scrutiny over LoJian? I personally think that being able to be in the top 7 requires some sort of talent besides having a sob story.
    You can criticize her talent, her singing, but bringing in the sob story was because the judges keeps on pressing the issue. The judge keeps on asking her about her skin color and her father her origin. There was a clear double standard because if other contestants family did not act model Chinese would act would they get the same scrutiny?
    This whole thing just upsets me on a personal level. I can’t believe that the culture that I am from is so close minded, I thought they were more open minded but I guess not.

31. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    @pug_ster
    I think her singing was good. I think it is shameless for people attacking her maybe because the other contestants were not as good as her and they lost. I saw the ranking, watched the videos, she had talent, maybe not as talented as the top 3 but she was.

32. buru Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    #28: I am not familiar with the build-up, but if the transcript given in the article is any indication it were the TV Hosts who repeatedly brought up the topic & gave tactless tidbits..? In fact mother & daughters replies seem quite tame & tentative.

    Also the article does not give any indication as to how she is using her skin color to win?? or is the very fact this ‘black’ girl entered a ‘Chinese’ competition held against her?

33. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    @Steve 27,

    Yes, I agree that men in China having affairs and flaunting it is a sign of power. In the West, powerful men like many politicans have affairs also but women forgive them. I don’t see women having the same kind of treatment. Maybe I am wrong but it is subjective.

    @Miaka9383,

    The fact is she shows up for TV to a public audience, she already put herself in front of the spotlight to get some scrutiny. It is no different then watching a show like Extra! and hear all the juicy celebrity gossip. It is racist, perhaps. However, this is the stuff that the TV viewers would probably think in back of their minds.

    Unlike the west, many children are raised by a mother and father. I think the Lou Jing’s mother who came up to TV telling her sob story and expect the Chinese audience to sympathize with her as if she was the victim in this is just plain unrealistic.

34. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    @Pug_ster
    I believe that she was asked to. Let me go rewatch that eps tonight and I shall give you a definite answer. I truly do not think she(the mother) volunteered to go up on stage. Plus LoJian was being honest and not trying to cover up when asked those personal questions.
    Also in her(lo jian) blog, she said she didn’t expect the Chinese audience to sympathize with her or her mother. LoJian is the victim here, how is she not? There was a clear double standard when they didn’t scrutinize other contestants. I mean there was a suspicion of anther Contestant faking her marital status, and there wasn’t many insults about that?

    But I have no evidence to support my first assumption so I will go find it.

    Here is what I found on it so far :
    http://homebbs.sz.soufun.com/szjjly~2~86/158797337_158797337.htm

35. Nimrod Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    miaka9383 Says:

    @Nimrod
    I read the whole story, but the woman paid her price having to raise her daughter alone and having to live with the shame of having an affair. With that said, if the gender roles were switched do you think there would be just as much scrutiny over LoJian?

    +++++
    No, I don’t think it was easy to be a single mother and I don’t think it’s necessarily fair that sometimes male and female peccadillos receive different treatment, but this is all kind of irrelevant, isn’t it? Also since this is adultery that broke a family (Mr. Lou, her original husband, is also a victim, and continues to be), I don’t think much sympathy will be generated by appealing to victimhood. That has been my impression anyway.

36. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    @Nimrod
    Not it is not irrelevant. That goes to show a double standard. Yes it broke a family, but she paid a price for it. Unless you don’t think because Lou Jian’s status as a child from a wetlock status disqualifies her in this competition? She was asked about her skin color and how she came about it was she not?

    http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:R-231QTX4BoJ:bbs.jn001.com/redirect.php%3Ftid%3D40686%26goto%3Dnewpost+%E5%8A%A0%E6%B2%B9%EF%BC%81%E4%B8%9C%E6%96%B9%E5%A4%A9%E4%BD%BF+%E5%A8%84%E5%A9%A7+youku&cd=23&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

37. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    @miaka9383,

    I wouldn’t know, because I never watched that show:) The fact that Lou Jing wants to be in front of TV will get the attention that she will get, whether warranted or unwarranted, like many paparazzi going after celebrities. Is it fair? Certainly not. Is she the victim here? Probably, but that she didn’t take the critism quite well when she said that she ‘reserves all rights to sue anyone who insults the colour of her skin’ in week 12 of the show.

38. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    Well Pug_ster
    That was after pleads of stop insulting her and her mother based on her skin color if you want to debate the fact.

39. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    @ pug_ster: Was it criticism she didn’t take well or was it racism? If someone criticized her singing I could understand your point but if someone criticized her skin color, that’s an entirely different matter.

40. Jason Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    I have to be Simon Cowell here, Lou Jing’s song is quite pitchy and not really good.

41. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    @Jason
    To each their own I guess. I like her. But I really really really like Liu Na Ping….

42. Nimrod Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    miaka9383 Says:

    @Nimrod
    Not it is not irrelevant. That goes to show a double standard.

    +++++
    Yes, but that’s what I mean. These particular double standards are universal. They don’t explain this incident very well.

43. miaka9383 Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    @Nimrod
    I suppose you are correct. It just angers me some of these netizens over look all of the guys that have affairs (Jackie Chan) and forgive them so easily and put this young girl who is not yet too famous. Or they think it is ok to have a second wife and criticize this girl. They have no right.
    Check out that cache link that I sent, it actually explain the incident pretty well.

44. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    @Miaka9383, 38 @Steve 39,

    Unfortunately, that feeds to the anonymity of the internet comments of people making stupid racist comments. The Criticism that she took was over the racist comments over her skin color among other things. So many of these same anonymous Chinese commenters would make fun of her because ‘she wants to sue.’ As I said, is it fair? No.

    It is pretty much like Barack Obama when he was running for president the issue of race always came up when Obama don’t want to run for president because he is an Africian American. Yet some Americans make up stupid rumors to ask if he was born in the US, his association with Rev Wright and Ayers.

    Since Lou Jing’s response didn’t exactly put this issue of race to rest instead making it worse, many pundits would say that she is ‘race-baiting.’ If Lou Jing wants to put this issue of race behind, she should’ve have a more conciliatory tone about racism in China and acknowledge it instead of wanting to ‘sue’ them. Like I said, it is not fair, but that’s life.

45. dewang Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    Hi Steve, A Chinese Man,

    I see also there’s a lot at play here, so I highlighted A Chinese Man’s comment #8.

    Steve: “It seems to me that while they complained about adultery, the other message was complaining about adultery with a black rather than a Chinese man, so was it sexism mixed with racism?”

    This is a very interesting point. I saw a documentary on PBS about a year ago, titled, “The Slanted Screen”.

    In one of the segments, the Asian actors talked about Hollywood having this phobia about casting Asian man actors as a lead and capable of having sex with caucasian women.

    So, I think this idea of sexism mixed with racism phenomenon is credible, and it is very universal.

    A Chinese Man: “And this burst of ‘racism’ is good for China, I think. Since we don’t have this liberalism tradiation, we need to expose social tensions in an agonistic way, and then we learn.”

    I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    Hi Steve, Jerry,

    Regarding “er nai” – I personally know only one instance in China. I travel to China very frequently as well. I have tons of friends who travel to China, and as far as I know, none of them have “er nai” there. I understand it is talked about a LOT. Obviously it has to be prevalent enough to be talked about a lot, but I think it is not widespread as you suggest.

    What is the definition of being Chinese?”

    Ha, if you ask the idiotic commenters on China Smack, you’d be asking the wrong crowd. Mind as well ask those Americans in Obama-bashing forums what they though it means to be American.

    On FM, we have a Featured Post section. The top most one, “What does it mean to be Chinese” in fact is a deep discussion about that.

46. hzzz Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    First of all, if Chinese are all racists the singer would not have made the cut and went on TeeVee.

    There is a comment which a person wrote that if the singer’s father were white, no one would say anything. I disagree with this and think there still would be tons of people condemning her mother for what she did. Granted, in the Chinese messageboards there are still comments like “if she chose to cheat with a foreigner she shouldn’t choose black” or “black people are gross” but most of the insults directed against the mother are not regarding the fact that she slept with blacks, or that blacks are inferior race, but rather that she cheated on her husband with a foreign man. Keep in mind that in the 80s and 90s there were a lot of people who wanted to get out of China using whatever means, some of them resorted to purposely having kids with Westerners and then force childcare support. I don’t see anything strange or unfair about condemning these actions.

    Personally I see a lot more REAL racism coming out of the expat community in Asian nations. There are Caucasians who truly think their cultures are superior to Asians’ in every way. Some of them are subtle and proclaim they love the Chinese people, while others are very open to talk about how they think that they are simply better than the locals because of their race. Many of these people are not ignorant and hold pretty good jobs in China/Asia. But the very thought that they are superior just because of their race to me defines racism, and in some ways I think many Asians reaffirm this by discriminating against their own race on the issues especially regarding politics and culture.

    Finally, as far as I know there are no real, organized racist movements in China like the KKK here in the US. You don’t see people writing books about how their race is superior based on IQ studies, or fantasies about killing what they think are inferior races. I think the relationship between Hans and Tibetans/Uighurs are alot more worrisome and could lead to organized racist movements if not controlled.

47. hzzz Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    “In one of the segments, the Asian actors talked about Hollywood having this phobia about casting Asian man actors as a lead and capable of having sex with caucasian women.”

    LOL, that’s an excellent point. As I wrote in my earlier post, if there are phobias in China against blacks this girl would not have even selected to be on the show. In America’s more racist days white guys would paint black faces to pretend to be black entertainers, because they did not want blacks to even get on the stage.

    Also, there is no doubt that Hollywood is racist. Take the movie “21”, it’s based off the MIT poker team which made up of entirely male Chinese Americans, lead by a Chinese American professor. Of course, in the movie they were all caucasians.. Basically, what Hollywood is trying to say that:

    1) Americans don’t like Asian men
    2) Asian men are incapable of being heroes

    So far, I would say that it has succeeded very well in its anti-Asian male agenda.

48. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 8:29 pm

    Hi hzzz~ I also saw that reverse racism coming out of the expat community in China and the weird thing was that it always seemed to come from the expats who were the biggest losers, so I’d guess there’s a definite correlation between the two.

    Of course not all Chinese are racist but don’t confuse making the cut with being talented or not being racist. My guess is that the TV producers knew that controversy makes for good ratings. 😉

    Typically, to have an organized racist movement there must be enough of a minority for the majority race to feel it is a threat. The Chinese government would also not tolerate any racist movements. Currently in China, I believe most minorities live amongst themselves and don’t live in large numbers with other Han.

    Along with Dewang, I also agree with A China Man when he wrote, “And this burst of ‘racism’ is good for China, I think. Since we don’t have this liberalism tradiation, we need to expose social tensions in an agonistic way, and then we learn.”

    Racism works best when it hides in dark alleys. When it is brought out into the light, most people realize how silly it is and change their viewpoint. As James Fallows wrote, “To be clear about the context: this is not a “blame China” episode but rather one of many illustrations of the differences in day by day social realities and perceived versus ignored sources of tension in particular societies.” I think that just about sums it up, at least for me.

    Dewang, I ran across the “er nai” thing far more with Taiwanese businessmen working in China or Chinese businessmen working in other parts of China than I did with Americans visiting China or working there on an irregular basis, though I did see some of it. I remember over at Motorola in Tianjin, one of the American manager’s wives wanted to bring herself and her kids back to the States after a year there. Before she left, she spoke to the Motorola counselor who told her that statistically there was a 90% chance that her husband would have an affair if she left. That’s not to say that this particular husband would have an affair, that’s just what the probabilities were running. After she heard that, both she and her husband returned to the States. She wasn’t going to play around with those kind of odds.

    I don’t think it’s so much the ones traveling to China but the ones who have families who live in their home countries or home cities and how either live or work in other areas. Long distance marriages seem to have a difficult time surviving in China, for some strange reason.

    I also agree with Nimrod that Shanghainese women get a bad rap. I didn’t find them to be any “looser” than anywhere else in China and in fact, noticed that most of the woman there who were having affairs with married men weren’t actually from Shanghai but had come to the city from other regions or cities.

49. colin Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    @hzzz

    Great points.

    Keeping in mind that being liberal doesn’t preclude one from being racists. “liberal” hollywood and media has always had a bias/phobia against asians.

50. Charles Liu Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    Why didn’t Fallows focus on all the supportive coments for the girl, and all those condeming the racistm? Why didn’t Fallows point out the prevlant praises Lou gets on-line as “Black Pearl”?

    http://www.baidu.com/s?bs=%C2%A6%E6%BA&f=8&wd=%C2%A6%E6%BA+%BA%DA%D5%E4%D6%E9

    Because showing China in a “normal” light isn’t the “official narrative” our media and elites go after in shaping our public opinion towards China. Here’s a generalized Baidu search on the girl’s name, and what I found:

    http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%C2%A6%E6%BA

    – Lou Jing’s protest over racist remark on-line is widely reported (stuff like “娄靖在网上发声明称严正抗议网友的种族歧视，她的肤色不应该成为被攻击的目标”)

    – OpEd in support of Lou is plenty (stuff like “洪晃：我们凭什么歧视混血女孩娄婧)

    – opinion that Lou is blameless in any moral judgement (stuff like “娄婧没有错，对娄母也应多宽容”)

    – there’s also accusation of male-chovanism (stuff like “看中国男人怎对娄婧母女发邪火”)

    – there’s also a lot people supporting Lou because she went on Angels to find her father (Baidu “娄婧 参赛 天使 为寻 生父”)

    I think it’s obvious why Fallows only focused on the few racial slur – becaue that is HIS lowest common denominator. This type of ideological “bridge blogging” has happened a lot, to make the point even I’ve done it.

51. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    Charles, this isn’t about James Fallows, this is about Lou Jing and China. He used multiple sources for opinions and quotations. If you want to add additional sources be my guest, but let’s keep this on track. And it’s not just about Lou Jing, it’s about racial attitudes in China. Web searches don’t prove or disprove anything.

52. Charles Liu Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 10:26 pm

    Steve, what Fallows is saying about China, is about China. The opinions on Lou I found shows most Chinese netters are not racist.

    Why didn’t Fallows or Chinasmack go beyond the few racial slur is obvious to me – all of sudden a hand full of idiots mean a billion people are racist? Give me a break.

53. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    Charles, I lived there, you did not. It’s a common attitude whether you like it or not. It’s hopefully beginning to change, whether you like it or not. Doing a web search isn’t research, it’s doing a web search.

    James Fallows is one of the most pro-China western commentators I’ve ever read, yet you paint him like some sort of China hater. In China discussions, he tends to be the one defending China against others who are painting a much bleaker picture of life there. If you’re painting him as China’s enemy, in my opinion your understanding of China is nil.

54. Charles Liu Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    Steve, “doing a web search isn’t research” – does this apply to Fallows and Chinasmack’s “sources” which are netter comments no doubt found by web search?

    I didn’t do anything they didn’t do, why is that when I looked majority of the comments are not racist?

    Let’s take a look at your “Quite a few people” – what’s the research, not web search, that led you to this conclusion? Oh, wait, the stuff you read are no doubt from the web.

    I disagree with the statement “There are countless comments like above with only a few neutral comments” – why is that when I looked on Baidu for this “countless comments” I did not find them, but instead found mostly positive/supportive comments?

55. Jason Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    @Steve

    Should Fallow actually gave a more unbiased piece and for you as well for providing some praise and criticism of the girl and not just all criticism which you Steve seems to do as well?

    Charles Liu is right. We need to 2 different side of the story and stop focusing on one bad thing.

56. dewang Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    Guys,

    Based on the comments Fallow’s listed, it seems like 90% of Chinese netizens are racist. I know that cannot be true.

    So I liked Charles Liu’s comment #50 in that it gives a bit more the non-racist Chinese view. Charles and those of you who can read Chinese, I highly encourage you to get us a broader sampling of what is being said by the Chinese.

    Guys, Steve is simply trying to expose a problem that exists – we debate on the degree. But I don’t think there is disagreement that Chinese society should solve this problem, as completely as possible.

57. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:03 pm

    @ Charles: Uh Charles, I lived there. Quite a few people are quite a few people. My “research” is talking to real Chinese people who actually live in China.

    Fallows didn’t make any insulting statements, he just mentioned the situation in his blog and added a few websites that wrote about it. You’re the one who put words in his mouth. Everyone else has discussed the issue but all you’ve done is try to deflect it. If you want to add other statements that’s fine, but dismissing Fallows is ridiculous since he didn’t comment on the issue, he just said it was an issue. So where’s the bias in his statement? Maybe you ought to re-read what he wrote.

    @ Jason: I added both praise and criticism. Why do you only see the criticism and not the praise? You might also want to read my comments at the end of the story. They weren’t critical of China at all.

58. Charles Liu Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:14 pm

    Dewang @ 56, “it seems like 90% of Chinese netizens are racist”

    Not only that, as Fallows and Steve seems to suggest, this biased 90%, found by web search, should be projected onto 1.3 billion people.

    The generalization of a billion people is obvious, so let’s see if this “90%” even holds water.

    Let’s do a very simple search count compare on a racist comment found by Chinasmack, and a supportive comment I found:

    – Chinasmack’s “green hat or black hat (这算绿帽子还是黑帽子)” slur – 7 hits:

    – The comment “skin color should not be a point of attack (肤色不应该成为被攻击的目标)” in support of Lou – 133,000 hits

    These Chinese netters are real people, and vast majority of them are not interested in racial slur, rather they echo the voice against racism. Why is that bridge bloggers like Fallows, Chinasmack, Chinahush, all seems to have an agenda not matching the facts on the ground?

59. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:18 pm

    Charles, mind answering my question? You do this all the time, make statements and then ignore the questions posed to you by your statements or give evasive answers that don’t address the questions. Why do you want everyone to answer your questions while you never want to answer theirs?

60. Jason Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:18 pm

    @Steve

    3 sentences. Are you serious? Charles Liu, dewang, and myself is influencing people like you and Fallow to be more balanced and fair and do some research elsewhere to find Chinese praising this girl rather than focusing on one site that mostly criticize for her mix-race.

    We are not criticizing people for the race issues in China. We believes is an important issue to be raised.

61. Charles Liu Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    Steve, Jason and Dewang both pointed out Fallow’s sampling suggest 90% racist comment. Also I already cited examples in comment 50 and 58, to support my thesis that those selectively bridged blog comments are biased.

    Your queston is already answered, you just refuse to accept the answer.

62. Roadblock Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    pug_ster 24,

    I cannot disagree more! The entire Chinese history has been about “I the civilized” versus “thou the barbarian”. Just to name a few examples: 犬戎灭周、白登之围、五胡乱华、安史之乱、靖康之耻、崖山之难、扬州三屠、嘉定十日、鸦片战争、八国联军、日本侵华。

    Steve 25，

    “Oriental” ASIAN; especially: one who is a native of east Asia or is of east Asian descent.– Merriam Webster
    Have anthropologists ever discovered a black or white ethnicity native to east Asia?

    buru 29,

    How is my argument out of date? It is philosophically exactly the same as those currently put forth by the Uighurs (minus the violent Islamic fundamentalist part), the Tibetans (minus the theocratic feudalist slavery part), and any other independence-seeking ethnic group anywhere in the world. I think it may be the West that is deluded by the fallacy of multiculturalism. If you are to condemn my opinion on philosophical grounds, you must also condemn the Tibetans and the Uighurs for irrational, “Nazist” troublemaking.

63. FOARP Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    Cue the classic “It’s the biased western media blah blah blah blah” we-don’t-want-to-talk-about-this-so-let’s-change-the-subject Fool’s Mountain switcheroo.

    @Charlie – Once again you don’t actually have anything to add except your websearching genius, since you don’t actually have that much to say about China except a grab-bag of talking points gleaned from various nationalist websites. I guess you could show us how many hits the words “讨厌娄婧”, “爱娄婧”, and “喜欢娄婧” get on Baidu (3, 0, and 8 respectively, by the way) – does this prove anything?

64. FOARP Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    “Have anthropologists ever discovered a black or white ethnicity native to east Asia?”

    White depends on your definition of East Asia, but certainly Central Asia includes light-skinned people similar to Europeans. The dark-skinned Austronesian peoples have their origin in Fujian and Taiwan.

65. pug_ster Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:31 pm

    Steve,

    Yet sites like chinasmack and fallows didn’t have problems taking exerpts from other websites and posted the most procoative ones. So I doubt that those websites are gold standard either. Besides, LJ coming out of the spotlight is an excellent chance for her to try to tackle the issue of racism in china head on by confronting the netizens who made those racist remarks, she chose to be dismissive that to say that many chinese are racists.

66. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:33 pm

    @ Jason: Did you read my last few paragraphs? I said there were comments from both sides and never said it was one sided. Where was I not balanced? My comments about racism weren’t based on this girl’s situation, they were based on my experience in China. I don’t mind criticism and you’re welcome to add other comments. I never said everyone was racist or implied everyone was racist. But if there was only a minuscule amount of racism, then why did it become a hot topic on Chinese discussion boards? The discussion wasn’t about whether there was more or less racism in China, it was how China was addressing racism brought about by this discussion.

    However, I noticed neither you nor Charles added ANY positive quotes to your comments, you only referred that they existed. Dewang also asked you to do so but you didn’t add any. I’ve said many times that I don’t read Chinese. If you do, then rather than criticize, why not add to the discussion by showing other quotes that are positive and reveal an enlightened attitude? I listed in the post what I found on the sites I visited. That’s all that was available to me. Telling us there are positive quotes isn’t the same thing as letting us read those positive quotes. And if you decide to do so, could you translate them into English so we can all read them? I’m sure they’d be pretty easy to translate since they are mostly short and simple.

    And I also noticed that neither of you addressed my other question, do Chinese consider Lou Jing to be Chinese?

    It’s very easy to criticize, but it’s a whole lot more productive to actually add something to the discussion. That’s what Dewang asked you to do. Why don’t you take him up on it?

67. dewang Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    Hi FOARP,

    Glad to see that you can search in Chinese. More data the merrier. If you could, please help us collect more data.

    I actually thought Charles Liu’s search phrases were really relevant.

    I read James Fallow’s blog – he made conclusions about China’s racism problem based on stupid comments from Chinasmack and Chinahush.

    So, I think Charles points are valid.

68. Steve Says:
    October 21st, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    @ Charles: Fallows wrote, “To be clear about the context: this is not a “blame China” episode but rather one of many illustrations of the differences in day by day social realities and perceived versus ignored sources of tension in particular societies. That’s all to say about it for now.” I asked you where the bias was in that statement. You never answered me but once again avoided a direct question.

    @ Roadblock: the Orient,
    a. the countries of Asia, esp. East Asia.
    b. (formerly) the countries to the E of the Mediterranean.

    Where was Lou Jing born? Regardless of definition you use for the Orient, she was born there, wasn’t she? So how can she not be Oriental? Do you not consider China an Oriental country? I know lots of kids who are American, born here but they are not Caucasian. Do you not consider them North American? Honestly, I have no idea what you’re talking about. And yes, I have met Chinese that are darker than many African Americans. Does that make them not Chinese?

    @ pug_ster: James Fallows didn’t post any excerpts on his blog. He just summed up the controversy and added a few links. No blogs are “gold standards”.

    Lou Jing cannot confront netizens because the ones that criticize hide their identity behind the net. And do you really think it should be up to a 20 year old girl to have to tackle racism by herself? All she was trying to do was sing a few songs and present herself. And look at the questions she was asked!

    @ Dewang: What conclusions did James Fallows make that you are referring to?

69. Charles Liu Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 12:16 am

    Steve, “neither you nor Charles added ANY positive quotes”

    A common positive quote by Chinese bloggers (133,000 links vs Chinasmack’s 7) was provided in comment 56. So much for your “ANY”.

    Also, below are quotes found by the generalized Baidu search using Lou’s name only, cited in comment 50 with summary provided. Here’re full translatons:

    “洪晃：我们凭什么歧视混血女孩娄婧” – “Hong Guan: what right do we have to discriminate against mixed blood girl Lou Jin”

    “娄婧没有错，对娄母也应多宽容” – “Lou Jing is blameless, her mother deserves understanding too”

    “看中国男人怎对娄婧母女发邪火” – “observing Chinese male-chovanism againt Lou mother-daughter”

    “娄婧的呼声感人肺腑” – “Lou Jing’s appeal [to find father] moved me to the core”

    “娄婧天使舞台证明自己和大家一样” – “Lou Jing’s stage presence proves she is the same as everyone”

    “并不是因为她有着奥斯卡影后上海“哈利贝瑞”的称号。而是娄婧切身的故事” – “not because she resembles Halle Barry, but because of her life story”

    Why didn’t Fallows/Chinasmak/GVO/PKD/etc. “expat bridge blogger” type go for these more often quoted *positive* reaction? The pattern of bahavior seems obvious to me.

    Steve @ 58, I obviousely have no problem with that statement. My beef is the selectively “bridged” blogger quotes came afterwards, which completely does not jive with his statement – yet you keep ignoring this point.

70. dewang Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 am

    Hi Steve,

    Fallows said:

    “To be clear about the context: this is not a “blame China” episode but rather one of many illustrations of the differences in day by day social realities and perceived versus ignored sources of tension in particular societies. That’s all to say about it for now.”

    The statement he said here is somewhat benign, and in fact, he said this is not a “blame China” episode. This was the “conclusion” I referred to.

    However, he provided links to Chinasmack and Chinahush were there were no doubt tons of racist and stupid ignorant comments.

    So, then, readers of his blog are left to conclude on their own.

    Its an incomplete picture (in my gut feeling slanted) by omission, not by what he actually said.

    Hence, when Charles said:

    “Why didn’t Fallows focus on all the supportive coments for the girl, and all those condeming the racistm? Why didn’t Fallows point out the prevlant praises Lou gets on-line as “Black Pearl”?”

    Charles questions are completely valid.

71. Charles Liu Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 12:36 am

    Foarp @ 63, it proves you are not a searh engine genius.

    Here’s a free lesson. The reason you got zero count for “LoveLouJing” is because without proper spacing, the three words became an atomic term which had no meaning.

    Try “Love LouJing”:

    http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%B0%AE+%C2%A6%E6%BA

72. Jerry Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 am

    @colin #21, @pug_ster #23,

    Colin, you wrote in #21:

    “the internet brings out the extremes. You’ll find plenty of obama cursing US forums.”

    I agree that it does. I would caution against ignoring the vitriol and hatred. Ignorance is only, at best, temporary bliss.

    I’d say at least half of criticisms on her are due to her perverse family story. Not necessarily fair to be dumped on her, but she’s the clear and visible target of this affair, especially after going on national TV. It’s not wrong for a society to be critical of these marital perversions.

    Unfortunate, yes. Perverse, no. “Perverse” seems an over-reaction. Unless you want to throw in all the “er nai” going on in China. Using your value system and logic, China is a perverse nation, to some degree. Now doesn’t that sound like an over-reaction? 😀 ::LOL::

    ####

    pug_ster, you wrote in #23

    Chinese’s government won’t step into this ‘issue’ as there is no crime involved. Seriously, when this type of issue has been involved, they shouldn’t step into this as it might feed into some type of media circus.

    A Chinese leader needs to wait for a crime to occur? That is a crying shame. This is a teachable moment. Fortunately, American presidents have used the “bully pulpit” to criticize that which is ethically wrong long before a crime is committed. It takes guts to lead. Fortunately, Obama is willing to step forward and lead. I don’t agree with him on various issues. But he is a leader. That is what I expect out of a president.

73. Jerry Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:39 am

    @Nimrod #26

    In any case, these are some complexities to keep in mind. Yes, there are xenophobic and racist tendencies here, but let’s keep in mind why they have manifested to this extent here as well. In some sense, I think Lou Jing and her mother are attacked as the “other” due to the fact that people did not consider them to act like model Chinese would act. Perhaps that’s a harsh standard but in my observation that could very well contribute to some feeling that she is not “Chinese in every way except for her looks and skin color.”

    I agree in general with you, Nimrod. I would like to add that I have no quarrel with emotions and feelings. We all have them. I have no problem with where any culture is at this point in time. The rub is in how you react to your feelings. Some of the outbursts I have noticed are vitriolic, racist and hateful. That speaks to some serious personal issues of these outbursters. Let us not over-react; then we only encourage them to over-react. And let us not under-react. Now is the time for leaders to react appropriately. Fortunately, there are many bloggers who are reacting appropriately. It would be nice for Chinese leaders to do some leading, too.

    Ignore hatred, sexism, and racism at your own peril. Hatred, sexism, and racism, like most things in life, grow or recede in progressions. Let us not allow this to grow and, sooner or later, hatred, sexism, and racism spread like wildfire.

    I know that I am prescribing a difficult path, trying to walk a tightrope, balancing between too much and too little. But then, life is not always easy. C’est la vie.

74. buru Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:42 am

    Roadblock#62:

    Its funny you dont see how your ‘pure’ Chinese concept is a rehash of the Nazi doctrine of yesteryears, or White supremacist theory of today.And trying to wriggle out by putting in Tibet & Uighurs into the pot when people are discussing Lou Jing! I suspect, to you,a Chinese= Han.Even the Hans descended from Africans BTW ; what you consider ‘pure’ Chinese has genes from disparate nations.

75. Steve Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:44 am

    @ Charles: Those are great quotes and I’m glad you provided them. That’s why FM is much better than ChinaSmack.

    Why didn’t Fallows include more positive quotes? I can’t speak for him but based on what I’ve read of him in the past, I’d suspect that when he referenced those sites, the quotes at the time might have been different than what they are today. I just don’t know. I didn’t see anything in his actual comment to justify thinking he was biased in his opinion. I’d give him the benefit of the doubt based on his previous writings.

    Why weren’t the other websites more positive? You’d have to ask the other websites. Why do you feel my final comments were biased? I’m open to criticism of my own comments so you can address those if you like.

    What do you mean by “bridged blogger quotes”? I’m not familiar with that term.

76. Jimmy Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 2:04 am

    @ Jerry #72

    LOL, you really believe that the government involvement will help in this situation? Most of the Chinese I ran across don’t even understand what really is “racism”, and I doubt the government is any brighter. If the government is getting involved, it will just try to use positive racism to counter negative racism. Inflexibility plus ignorance will just double the hurt in this case.

    For those who are really, really impatient, the only feasible way to quickly erase racism in China is to bring back the brainwashing Marxism BS back to the public. Academically speaking, Marx was one of the first guy that understood how racism really works and how to counter it, and the Maoist just love to shove that down people’s throat. After all, it takes gut to lead, it also takes gut to start a Great Leap Backward.

    Sarcasm aside, my main point is that the racist attitudes that are popping up around is that it is not a evil scheme developed by the dumb Chinese, it is a byproduct of the liberalization of the Chinese society. Instead of the government brainwashing people on racism is bad like during the Cultural Revolution, Chinese people themselves are starting to learn what is racism by their own experiences. Yes, on the short term China will become racist because people haven’t learned what is racism with the government stopped brainwashing people on the issue, but on the long term, China will learn how to deal with racism provided that people have a chance to learn and make mistakes.

77. Roadblock Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 am

    Steve 68,

    What is up with you? I have just given the dictionary definition of “OrientaAL”, NOT “Orient”! Have you even read my post? I have also mentioned, for multiple times, that in China citizenship is a purely jus sanguinis right, NOT jus soli. Babies born on China soil are not necessarily Chinese! Do you consider Henry Luce an “Oriental”? Is Huston Smith an “Oriental”? William A. Anders? Shannon Lucid? Similarly, is Richard Dawkins an African? Furthermore, “Oriental Angels” is only a translation of “东方天使”, which clearly implies “黄种人”

78. Jerry Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 2:39 am

    @miaka9383 #30 #31 #36

    Miaka, it seems that there is a fair amount of sexism here at FM, to various degrees.

    Miaka, my daughter, who is in her late 20’s, is an orthopedic surgeon. She is only the 2nd woman orthopedic surgeon ever at her hospital. And, not surprisingly, she runs into sexism more often than she would like. Fortunately, the sexism is to a much lesser degree than the most, if not all, of the sexist reactions to Lou Jing, out in the rant-osphere. And even some of callous sexism on display here at FM.

    My daughter is a tough, smart, capable young woman and doctor. She knows how to handle herself. And she knows how to walk the fine line between over- and under-reacting. Yes, it bothers her at times. But she deals with it and she will be fine. Very fine.

    BTW, being a surgeon, she knows how to use a scalpel, very well. ::LMAO:: And, yes, I am very proud of her. And maybe because of my daughter and upbringing, I am little bit more attuned to the issue of sexism than many men.

79. Rhan Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 3:20 am

    Roadblock#77,
    “that in China citizenship is a purely jus sanguinis right, NOT jus soli.” – Is this true? Can overseas Chinese become a China citizen as and when we want it?

80. Wukailong Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 am

    This is slightly off-topic, but, judging from Lou Jing’s facial expression and body language, she’s very much a Chinese girl. If she had grown up in the US she would most certainly wear a big smile and have a completely different way of speaking.

    BTW, judging from this video I can see why more and more people in China won’t hire people from TV as wedding hosts:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ewkusovtto

    The male host, with his constant talk of “chocolate skin”, is just completely annoying.

81. Charles Liu Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 3:48 am

    Rhan, Roadblock, just to make 79 on-topic, can you see which clause in China’s citizenship law qualify Lou Jing as Chinese?

    http://chineseculture.about.com/od/lawinchina/a/Citizenship.htm

    Also, it seems China does have naturalization process, for example foreign spouce, adopted children of Chinese citizen can apply for citizenship. No immigration lottery like US, thou (they already have too many people.)

    Some lucky people can qualify for Taibao certificate, which allows permant residence and citizenship application too.

    BTW, you can find an interview of Lou Jing on Baidu Video:

    http://video.baidu.com/v?ct=301989888&rn=20&pn=0&db=0&s=25&word=%C2%A6%E6%BA

    She sounds completely Chinese. Also I have to agree with some of the Chinese netters, her singing is not top-shelf (maybe that’s why she got voted out in quarter final, kinda Sanjaya-ish.)

82. pug_ster Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 3:51 am

    Lou Jing cannot confront netizens because the ones that criticize hide their identity behind the net. And do you really think it should be up to a 20 year old girl to have to tackle racism by herself?

    I’m sure that many Chinese are racially discriminated against like migrant workers and such and raise awareness about it instead of her trying to victimizing herself about her ordeals? She could’ve used the ‘hurt of Chinese feelings’ to try to get Chinese people to sympathize with her cause. Racism exists in China as well as in Western countries because the oppressed people did nothing. Segregation happened in the South until Rosa Parks refused to take it. Lou Jing shouldn’t take Racism sitting down and crying and try to rally the Chinese to their cause.

    All she was trying to do was sing a few songs and present herself. And look at the questions she was asked!

    Yeah, so Barack Obama wants to just run for president last year and look at the kind of questions about race gets blown at him. I like the Analogy of Jimmy #76 says that this is the liberalization of China. People can say whatever they feel appropriate to say and some of it is just not pretty. Issues of race are in back of many American’s minds on the elections last year, and the issues of race are probably in back of Chinese’s minds when Lou Jing showed up. What do you do, tell people what to think?

83. Jerry Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 3:58 am

    @Jimmy #76

    IMHO, you are over-reaching here a bit. I am not talking about “brainwashing Marxism BS back to the public”. I am not talking about insidious Maoist re-education. They don’t work. I am not talking about government edicts, government intervention, or even government involvement. They just hide the problems of racism, sexism and hatred with a layer of PC.

    I am talking about the “bully pulpit”, the “fireside chat”. I am talking about having a conversation with the people of the country. I am talking about leading, not governing. Maybe the leaders of China don’t know how to do this? Maybe China is not ready for a conversation? Who knows? But the problems of racism, sexism and hatred are there. Maybe they have been repressed for a while. But they always find a way to emerge and spew out.

    I agree, quick fixes for racism, sexism and hatred won’t work. Laws, brainwashing, re-education, government intervention do not make the problem disappear. As I wrote in #73 to Nimrod, “Hatred, sexism, and racism, like most things in life, grow or recede in progressions.” Like it or not, it will be painful and it will take time.

    I agree, this is not some “evil scheme developed by the dumb Chinese, it is a byproduct of the liberalization of the Chinese society.” Yes, somebody took the lid off.

    “on the short term China will become racist”

    I disagree. A number of Chinese are already racist, hateful and sexist. (I say “a number”, because I don’t feel comfortable saying many or few) Like a vampire, these distorted, toxic feelings have been lurking in the dark, poisoning their possessors. Bringing these feelings to the surface, to the light of day, is the only way to start on the way to dealing with this devious pathology. And healing is a painful, time-consuming process.

    Kind of reminds me of “The Shadow” who said, “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows …”

84. Cissy Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 3:59 am

    I didn’t finish reading all the comments, but did somebody ever mention that her mother’s affair with the African American happened during her honeymoon with her later-divorced husband? He divorced her when the skin color of the new-born baby shocked everybody. By Chinese moral standard, her mother’s behavior is completely unacceptable back in the early 90s, not even today, not even in Shanghai. Also, the girl’s attitude “daddy is american not african” also irritated a lot of people. Another thing I want to remind everybody is that, the Chinese cyberspace is very violent and irrational, not necessarily reflecting the real-life situation, at least not to the same extend. Whatever response she got on Internet doesn’t mean people will throw stones at her like in some other countries.

85. Charles Liu Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 4:23 am

    Cissy, please read comment 50 on what most Chinese blogger said about moral judgement on Lou Jing’s mother – Lou Jing is blameless in that.

86. S.K. Cheung Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 5:42 am

    Wow, I figured this thread would get action, but this is more than I thought. I wonder if this ranks up there in terms of comments in first 24 hours in the non-Tibet non-Dalai Lama category?

    It’s nice to see that no one is suggesting any longer that Chinese are incapable of racism. And of course no one is suggesting all Chinese are racist, though apparently someone thought I gave that impression in #1.

    My usual contention is that you can’t solve a problem until you’ve acknowledged/recognized its existence. Check. Next step is to gauge the scope of the problem. So now we’re at the point of accusing Fallows of cherry picking his quotes, and the google/baidu aficionados are coming back with “see all these other opposing quotes”. I suppose that’s the context that some people love. Beyond saying that some Chinese are neanderthals, and some Chinese are enlightened, I’m not sure what dueling quotes really tell us. I wonder if any scientifically rigorous surveys have been done to assess people’s racial attitudes in China. With many surveys on social issues, they often analyze subgroups based on demographics (eg. rural vs urban, education level, income). I’d be fascinated to see the distribution of social attitudes on things like racism and sexism on the basis of those parameters. The difficulty with such a survey would be that it should be pretty obvious what the proper answer should be, even if the respondent is lying through their teeth. On the other hand, since some have suggested that CHinese have yet to learn about racism, maybe their answers might be brutally honest.

    The final piece of the puzzle, after you’ve identified the problem and its scale, is to figure out what to do about it. People have suggested time and exposure, which makes sense. I suppose you can’t improve your racial attitudes unless you practice them. Hopefully, the “average” Chinese person is a quick study in this arena. I say “average”, because it seems some have already figured it out, while the knuckle-draggers might never do.

    Once the racism issue is addressed, maybe they can move onto the sexism/misogyny bit as Steve and Miaka have alluded to. I wonder if there are more Chinese men who sleep around or more Chinese women who do the same? And just to put it into “context”, the same is probably true of any other nationality. See how much those last 9 words added to this discussion of racism in China?

87. Jerry Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 6:42 am

    To all of you who are complaining about the lack of positive quotes from both Fallows and Steve, I have some advice.

    If you want more positive quotes, please go out and find them yourself. Steve is not your servant and not your babysitter. He is not even Fallows’ babysitter! Nor a mind-reader. It seems that some of you think you are mind-readers. Quite some talent.

    If you want to gripe about Fallows imperfection and slanted viewpoint, be my guest. Maybe you would like to write Fallows yourself with your newfound quotes and suggest he write a follow up article. That might even be productive.

    If you want to blame the west for being biased, be my guest. Blaming others is a great way to dodge your own accountability. Great diversion tactic! And basically dishonest.

    Steve, thank you for starting the conversation on Lou Jing. I, for one, do not expect you to provide a textbook or a study or a complete listing of all relevant data. Again, Steve, thanks.

88. dewang Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 7:38 am

    Hi Jerry,

    If you want more positive quotes, please go out and find them yourself.
    Great advice.

    Maybe you would like to write Fallows yourself with your newfound quotes and suggest he write a follow up article. That might even be productive.
    Another great advice.

    Blaming others is a great way to dodge your own accountability.
    The sentence itself is truism. But can you tell me who here is sincerely not interested in China eradicating racism?

    Steve, thank you for starting the conversation on Lou Jing. I, for one, do not expect you to provide a textbook or a study or a complete listing of all relevant data. Again, Steve, thanks.
    I concur. This is a tough topic, and I am glad Steve made the post.

    Now I hope all the knee-jerking is done. How do we get a true sense on how pervasive a problem this is in China? Are there ideas to tackle it?

89. S.K. Cheung Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 7:46 am

    To Jerry:
    well said. I’ve got a few babysitters I can recommend…

    Maybe some FMers should engage those at ChinaSmack or Chinahush, and debate about who is more “Chinese”.

    To Dewang #70:
    “this is not a “blame China” episode….However, he provided links to Chinasmack and Chinahush were there were no doubt tons of racist and stupid ignorant comments….So, then, readers of his blog are left to conclude on their own.” — so in your mind, the only conclusion is that every Chinese person must be ridiculously racist? I don’t think I’d hold Fallows responsible for some of the conclusions you jump to.

90. Raj Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 8:03 am

    Pug_ster

    Segregation happened in the South until Rosa Parks refused to take it.

    If you’re talking about the bus incident, Rosa Parks had the opportunity to stand up to being physically bullied/intimidated. All she had to do was not move from her bus seat. On the other hand Lou Jing has to fight the opinions of others, mostly unnamed people which is very hard. The only way she could challenge discrimination was to take part in the contest regardless of what anyone may have said or thought – she did that.

    Blaming the victim for either being in the wrong or not doing enough to ensure they’re not a victim is a heartless approach to take. It is up to the discriminating community to reform itself, even if the people who are bullied should feel confident enough to stand up for themselves. Obviously in China they don’t, maybe because they think that if they rock the boat they will be accused of attempting to “disrupt social harmony” or some such. This is why I agree that it would be good to see more leadership from the government on matters like this – it would make help people realise that their behaviour is wrong.

91. Jason Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 8:11 am

    @Jerry

    Now that Charlie Liu found quotes that has praised the mix-raced Lou Jing so the argument that there’s a “few” that has any positive to say from the Chinese people who viewed this story is BEING DEBUNKED.

    If people ie Steve who blindly Fallow and China Smack and China Hush for their one-sided story actually do a bit more research rather than cut and paste, he would of known that there’s many others that lauded Lou Jing.

    If Fallow, China Smack and China Hush said something like “Although there’s many racist comments, we found that there’s many positive comments as well,” then we wouldn’t be talking about this situation.

92. Charles Liu Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 8:22 am

    Dewang @ 88, “How do we get a true sense on how pervasive a problem this is in China?”

    What are the facts at hand – are those racial slurs “bridge blogged” by those expat blogs pervasive? Not at all according to my search on Baidu. Most of the opinion connected to Lou Jing are positive in Chinese blogsphere. How much more clear does it have to be when it’s 7 slur vs 133,000 support?

    But guess what, couple threads in KDS and Tianya found nowhere else dooms a billion people – just becuase couple expat bloggers made a concious decision to translate only the obsucre and ugly stuff that are in no way the majority, and mainstream media columnist like Fallows picks it up and use it to reassert his observation/indictment. Then people who reads it without critical examination simply regurgitates it on another blog.

    If this is not the definition of “echo chamber” I don’t know what is. Racism gong wild? I think not. It’s more like ‘anti-China bridge blogging gone wild.”

    BTW, I’m American. It matters not how this “China is racist” dice shakes out. What I can’t stomach is this intellectual dishonesty.

93. pug_ster Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 11:15 am

    @Raj 90

    If you’re talking about the bus incident, Rosa Parks had the opportunity to stand up to being physically bullied/intimidated. All she had to do was not move from her bus seat. On the other hand Lou Jing has to fight the opinions of others, mostly unnamed people which is very hard. The only way she could challenge discrimination was to take part in the contest regardless of what anyone may have said or thought – she did that.

    It was not just her but many people who sympathize with her cause joined her. If I remember correctly, there was a bus strike where many Africian Americans who didn’t take the bus. Since there are not alot of mixed raced chinese citizens, they have the support of the Chinese themselves to sympathize with her. Unfortunately, ‘let’s sue them’ approach is the typical whiner’s response.

    Blaming the victim for either being in the wrong or not doing enough to ensure they’re not a victim is a heartless approach to take. It is up to the discriminating community to reform itself, even if the people who are bullied should feel confident enough to stand up for themselves. Obviously in China they don’t, maybe because they think that if they rock the boat they will be accused of attempting to “disrupt social harmony” or some such. This is why I agree that it would be good to see more leadership from the government on matters like this – it would make help people realise that their behaviour is wrong.

    So it is the job of the government to lecture people from right and wrong, to tell lecture others about racism? In the west would they did that and racism still exists, you think if the Chinese leaders did the same, it would be just as effective?

94. Raj Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    pug_ster

    Yes, people sympathised with Rosa Parks – mostly because she was arrested and taken to court for not moving from her seat. Had Lou Jing been arrested and charged with the crime of “not being 100% Chinese and appearing in a talent competition” I’m sure the reaction would have been the same. You’re ignoring the point that Rosa Parks was able to gain support simply by being passive – this girl would have to do something quite different.

    So it is the job of the government to lecture people from right and wrong, to tell lecture others about racism?

    So you’re saying the comments highlighted were not racist? If they were racist, someone would not be lecturing and imposing their own views they would be REMINDING people that such comments are racist. That’s what I think one of the problems in China regarding racism is, that society as a whole is too tolerant of racism because it’s “acceptable” or not unacceptable.

    Supposedly Hu and Wen are respected politicians in China, so if they spoke out and said society needs to be less tolerant towards racism and racial discrimination (maybe also saying they would look at whether new laws are needed to combat it legally) it would start/invigorate a positive discussion on the matter. You cannot eradicate racism but you can make it socially taboo and limit it.

    In any case the Chinese government is happy to have lots of laws telling people how to live their lives, to tell them to “live harmoniously” and all that sort of thing. Why is racism one area of life it cannot comment on?

95. pug_ster Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    @Raj 94,

    Hu, Wen or the Chinese Government would only react to this situation if there’s a bunch people protesting or if some kind of civil unrest is happening. Do you see that here? No. I’m not saying that Lou Jing is wrong here, I think that most Chinese don’t think that this is a serious problem. In fact, if Hu and Wen steps in to interject about racial discrimination, I think the Chinese would protest against the government considering there’s alot of ill feelings of Foreigners getting the preferential treatment (yes even though Lou Jing is not one.) In fact, many Chinese think that by Lou Jing trying hog the spotlight by making inflammatory remarks, even if she is right.

96. FOARP Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Once again, Baidu hits prove exactly nothing about whether there was a racist reaction to this girl or not. There was one, the comments on websites like KDS show that. Was this the majority response in this particular case? Probably not, but if you are writing about racism then you write about racism. Anyone who has lived in China long-term can tell you that they are, anyone who can speak Chinese can tell you that casual racism (“black people are dirty”, “black people are violent”, “white women are very loose” etc. etc. – and these are quotes from graduate students) is part of the small-change of Chinese conversation. The quoted comments are not un-representative of mainstream Chinese opinion, and arguing otherwise flies in the face of China as I and every other foreigner knows it.

97. pug_ster Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    @FOARP 96,

    ”black people are dirty”, “black people are violent”, “white women are very loose”

    Blame it on the export of American culture. That’s what Chinese see in American movies and news.

98. Jimmy Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    @ Jerry 83

    Speaking in sociology , the problem of racism/sexism is not just a problem of hate, it is also a problem of the social structure. The reason I bring Marx up is that he is one of the first guy to recognize this fact, and it is also an important factor that people normally ignore in discussions like this. To demonstrate my point, I’ll put the academic definition of racism here.

    What is race? An outdated social concept that divide people alone biological features.

    What is racism? An ideology that applies the race concept

    What is racism (or all forms of discrimination) for? To justify the stratification/division within a society.

    As you can see from the definitions, instead of just saying people’ mind are the direct cause of racism, the real question is what is the huge divide in China that made racism/sexism acceptable? Was this divide present in the past? Will it be present in the future?

    All the questions bring me back to my point on how liberalizing the Chinese society can impact racism developments. Before China was opening up, the entire country was forced into an egalitarian society, but now with the uneven economic developments we can see people are being divided into classes. As a social scientist would argue, the bigger the divide, the greater the acceptance of discrimination within the general populace. Thus comes my argument that China will become racist on the short term. As long as China is suffering from inequality, the root of the problem just won’t go away.

    After all the discussion on class and racism, I have one last point on the definition of “Chinese” the Steve pointed out. The “Chinese” definition is not a blood definition in this cases, it is a class definition. It is a “class” of Chinese people calling themselves “Chinese” that rejects Lou Jing from their group. This group doesn’t represents the entire country, but it does shows that the society has been divided between elitists and the others.

99. Jerry Says:
    October 22nd, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    @Jason #91, @Charles Liu #92

    Charles, I have seen your proof. Your proof is predicated on the Chinese blogosphere, whatever that is. Basing your proof on the global blogosphere or any subset thereof is a dicey proposition. Just what does the blogosphere represent? Maybe itself, if we are lucky; I have my doubts. Then to do some searches and claim that the Chinese blogosphere is overwhelmingly supportive of Lou Jing, that is pretty amazing. Whoa, now you are really walking the plank! You claim:

    What are the facts at hand – are those racial slurs “bridge blogged” by those expat blogs pervasive? Not at all according to my search on Baidu. Most of the opinion connected to Lou Jing are positive in Chinese blogosphere. How much more clear does it have to be when it’s 7 slur vs 133,000 support?

    QED, you claim! All who deny this are lying and misrepresenting the “facts. So who is lying here, according to your “facts”?

    Well, one of these unscrupulous liars, using your “logic” and “facts”, is Xinhua. Oops!

    Xinhua wrote in Coloring the debate:

    Shanghainese Lou Jing’s Chinese and African heritage sparked controversial debate when she appeared on Dragon TV’s reality talent show Go! Oriental Angel. … Netizens criticized the mother, sharply blasting her with condemnations related to extramarital affairs, illegitimate children and race. … A netizen with the handle “Zheng Aitianxia” wrote a post entitled “Lou Jing’s American Black Father and Shanghai Mother” on the Chinese forum Tianya that attracted more than 100,000 views and some scathing comments. …

    Well, I just can’t stand back and watch you belittle and denigrate the reputation of Xinhua. So I did my own “scientific” opinion survey using Google. I used the search term, “lou jing criticized” and got 582,000 hits, which is more than 4 times the number of hits you got.

    I have successfully defended the honor of Xinhua with my “facts”. Whew! I was worried there for a few minutes.

    So, what have we proved here. Nothing! Have we determined prevalence of opinion? No! Have we determined percentages? No! All we know is that some people support LJ and some people are spewing hatred at her. I think we could have deduced that earlier, without these time-consuming “studies”.

    Charlie, these “facts”, mine and yours, are ridiculous and absurd. They get us nowhere. And I just can’t stand it when you diss Xinhua.

    ####

    Jason, why are you trying to debunk tianya.cn when a blogger there says, “There are countless comments like above with only a few neutral comments, but mainly saying it’s not the girls fault…” The very fact that we are talking about a blog, let alone tianya.cn tells us we have no need to debunk. Do you believe everything you read? What a waste of time.

    The fact that many supported LJ and many dissed her should not come as a surprise.

    If Fallow, China Smack and China Hush said something like “Although there’s many racist comments, we found that there’s many positive comments as well,” then we wouldn’t be talking about this situation.

    Not necessarily. Controversy seems to draw a crowd!

100. FOARP Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 3:03 pm

     @Pug_ster –

     “Blame it on the export of American culture. That’s what Chinese see in American movies and news.”

     Yes, because loads of Chinese people watch American news programs.

     @Jerry – Too right. For ages Charles has been peddling ‘facts’ about China based on the prevalence of various keywords in searches – a completely ridiculous way of attempting to support or disprove any particular position given the way such ‘facts’ vary with the keywords used, and the way in which the internet does not properly represent opinions within a society. Add to that his entire reason for doing so is to prove ‘bias’ against China in every story which casts China (a country he has only ever visited as a tourist) in an unfavourable light – especially given that anyone who actually lived long-term in China (something which Charles seemingly dares not do) would recognise these sentiments as not uncommon.

101. Steve Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 4:36 pm

     @ Jason #91: Did you ever consider that when Fallows posted his blog entry, the comments might have been closer to 50/50 on these sites? As I said before, criticizing what he actually wrote is fair, criticizing blog links that he has no control over is not. And since we’re a popular Chinese blog, why not add positive comments to this one for a better balance? Rather than always attacking the messenger (which is easy), why not contribute to the message (which requires effort) as Charles did in #69?

     @ Roadblock #77: “Oriental” is the adjective of “orient” the noun. Babies born in China to Chinese citizens are Chinese. Her mother was a Chinese citizen, therefore she is Chinese. If my wife was Chinese and I lived with her in Shanghai and we had a baby, that baby would be Chinese and a Chinese citizen. If I had an American wife and we were living in Shanghai when our child was born, that child would be American. Duh!

     @ pug_ster #93: I’ve gotta disagree with you here. Government education on racism can certainly help. Will there always be racists in every society? Sure. Can a society trim the number of racists by having a more integrated culture and use education to enlighten its citizens? Well, that’s what happened in the States and today there is very little racism. When I was a kid, there was incredible amounts of racism. Times change.

     I can’t buy the argument you’re making about Lou Jing bringing this upon herself in the contest. Entering the contest and answering questions about her family background does not justify racist remarks. That would be similar to the “she deserved to be raped by the way she dressed” argument. Look back again at the questions she was asked. If you said the contest committee was racist by the questions they asked her, I could buy that argument. But to say she is responsible in any way for the racist remarks on the net isn’t fair to her. She’s also only 20 years old. How can you compare her to Obama running for President? She just thought she’d be competing in a talent show.

     And you want to blame this on American culture? Isn’t that a huuuuuge stretch? Most Chinese don’t ever see American news and movies aren’t movies restricted by the government to something like 20 foreign films per year? And aren’t American films full of different races working together as fellow Americans?

     @ FOARP #96: What you heard is what I heard. I’m sure others have heard it while there. Acting like it doesn’t exist is naive. It does. That’s why we’re discussing it. As I said before, I believe it’s from ignorance and not hatred. I doubt you’d find more than a very few Chinese people who would say they hate blacks and I’d believe them. The fact we’re getting so many comments speaks to the relevance of this issue.

     @ Jerry #99: 582,000 hits? Wow! For me it goes to show that like opinion polls, the wording of the search determines the results. Charles, this is why throwing search numbers around isn’t valid data, unless you now want to say that 4X more Chinese are racist than are not. Incidentally, I don’t believe that last sentence is true at all.

     Two points: First, as FOARP pointed out, all you have to do is live in China, make friends and talk to people about this. What you’ll tend to hear is what FOARP and I (and many others) heard. No one’s making this stuff up.

     Second, the only people who can honestly judge racism are minorities. Han Chinese are not qualified to judge the degree of racism in China just as I’m not qualified to judge the degree of racism in the States. Whenever the question of racism towards Chinese in the US comes up, I ask my wife about it since she is in a position to judge. I am not. So if you’re Han Chinese, you’re really not in any position to judge racism in China.

102. Charles Liu Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 6:07 pm

     Jerry, what part of “lou jing criticized” proves the results are racist? 582,000 hits are talking about her signing for all I know. BTW you neglected to cite the link you used. What, afraid to show people most of these 582,000 hits are not racist?

     I used relevant term like the slur “black hat” – and almost no one used this in reference to Lou Jing besides the one thread Chinasmack singled out. While “skin color shouldn’t be attacked”, a clear opinion in support of Lou, is repeated 133,000 times. BTW I provided the search link to prove it.

     The quality of your search result simply isn’t there, and you’re the only one who proved nothing.

     BTW, I’ve translated the part of Lou Jing’s interview where she talked about her life story. Why anyone would belive majority of Chinese wouldn’t like this girl, and the hateful comments are not a small minority, is beyond me:

     http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2009/10/22/lou-jing-you-had-me-at-80-100/

     Lou Jing in the interview also said the unkind stuff came as result of the contest, not racism (is she fit to judge her situation?)

     Both Chinasmack and Chinahush have incorrectly attributed the “reserve right to sue” statement to her; Lou said in the interview she wouldn’t be so vindictive to write stuff like that. So what else are they wrong?

103. Jason Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm

     Sure the searches mean nothing to prove the majority and minority issue but it shows somewhat a larger supported voice that is clearly missed from Fallow, ChinaHush, Xinhua (although Xinhua did report on some who praised her but mostly people that has real names rather than blogs’ usernames), and ChinaSmack, and various news outlets and blogs.

     Oh and Jerry: http://www.googlebattle.com/?domain=lou+jing+criticized+black&domain2=lou+jing+praised+black&submit=Go!

     “Lou Jing praised black” (529,000) was 3x more than “Lou Jing criticized black” (163,000) searches. Don’t know where you got your results.

104. Jimmy Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm

     @ Steve 101

     Technically the government did teach people against racism/sexism because is part of the Marxism/Maoism dogma, if you read propaganda posters 40 years ago, there are full of anti-racism/sexism slogans with Red Guards running around. The problem nowadays is that nobody listen to Marxism/Maoism anymore, and the ideology against racism/sexism in China just died with it.

105. Jason Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 6:39 pm

     @Jimmy

     Exactly. Mao allowed women to work rather than let them be housewives (which the Industrial Revolution in America didn’t allow women to work at the first place).

     There were many women who worked in the industrial sites and there were women joining the Red Army.

106. Steve Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 7:41 pm

     Hi Jimmy~

     I couldn’t agree with you more. One really pleasant aspect I found in Chinese culture as compared to other East Asian cultures was the much greater equality of women there. I give Mao’s government 100% credit for that and I’m glad you mentioned it.

107. Fauna Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 8:28 pm

     #58

     – Chinasmack’s “green hat or black hat (这算绿帽子还是黑帽子)” slur – 7 hits:

     – The comment “skin color should not be a point of attack (肤色不应该成为被攻击的目标)” in support of Lou – 133,000 hits

     This is bad comparison. One netizen comment vs. Lou Jing’s statement. Which do you think will be quoted more on the internet news articles?

     #69

     A common positive quote by Chinese bloggers (133,000 links vs Chinasmack’s 7) was provided in comment 56. So much for your “ANY”.

     133,000 links that contain the characters “肤色不应该成为被攻击的目标” are not “positive quote by Chinese bloggers.” Please go to the higher page number on your Baidu search. 133,000 does not = 133,000 positive comments about Lou Jing. For example, search for “支持娄静” is also not every result “positive comment”.

     Steve did not say there are not “ANY” positive comments about Lou Jing. He said you did not add any in your posts. This is true. You give a search about a statement said by Lou Jing. That is not a positive comment. I do not think your comment about Steve is accurate and fair.

     Why didn’t Fallows/Chinasmak/GVO/PKD/etc. “expat bridge blogger” type go for these more often quoted *positive* reaction? The pattern of bahavior seems obvious to me.

     Because my post is about “Shanghai ‘Black Girl’ Lou Jing Abused By Racist Netizens” not “Shanghai ‘Black Girl’ Lou Jing Defended by Reasonable Netizens“.

     #70

     Its an incomplete picture

     Life is always an incomplete picture. If people or readers cannot conclude that there are other sides, then they are stupid or they want to be stupid. There are many stupid people in the world. This is normal.

     #85, #92

     Cissy, please read comment 50 on what most Chinese blogger said about moral judgement on Lou Jing’s mother – Lou Jing is blameless in that.

     How much more clear does it have to be when it’s 7 slur vs 133,000 support?

     Ridiculous.

     #99

     Good comment. Very silly.

     #102

     I used relevant term like the slur “black hat” – and almost no one used this in reference to Lou Jing besides the one thread Chinasmack singled out.

     “Black hat” is not a slur. This is a joke with “green hat”. Do you speak Chinese?

     Both Chinasmack and Chinahush have incorrectly attributed the “reserve right to sue” statement to her; Lou said in the interview she wouldn’t be so vindictive to write stuff like that. So what else are they wrong?

     I published my post before her interview when she deny that KDS post. There was many new news later, including Lou Jing interview and other people who said Lou Jing lied in her interview. I did not post about them but I think ChinaHush and ESWN did. It is ridiculous to say that other things are wrong because something I reported was contradicted or denied later. Do you accept if I say your search result argument is wrong so what else are you wrong about?

108. pug_ster Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 8:33 pm

     I’ve gotta disagree with you here. Government education on racism can certainly help. Will there always be racists in every society? Sure. Can a society trim the number of racists by having a more integrated culture and use education to enlighten its citizens? Well, that’s what happened in the States and today there is very little racism. When I was a kid, there was incredible amounts of racism. Times change.

     Sorry, I have respectfully disagree you there. The only time when there is some sort of ‘discussion’ about racism is when some kind of hate crime happened. Yet it keep happening and it only keeps the discussion from public forums to living rooms because if they said something publicly, they will be called a racist. It has gotten so bad I recall that Barack Obama in response to Rev Wright controversy wants Americans to have a frank discussion about this. Heck the West don’t respect racism in China when they support separatist movements within Tibetans and Uythurs to hate the Chinese. The problem with democracy also exacerbate this situation by having the Republicans and Democrats sniping each other in an us vs them attitude.

     I can’t buy the argument you’re making about Lou Jing bringing this upon herself in the contest. Entering the contest and answering questions about her family background does not justify racist remarks. That would be similar to the “she deserved to be raped by the way she dressed” argument. Look back again at the questions she was asked. If you said the contest committee was racist by the questions they asked her, I could buy that argument. But to say she is responsible in any way for the racist remarks on the net isn’t fair to her. She’s also only 20 years old. How can you compare her to Obama running for President? She just thought she’d be competing in a talent show.

     Blame on the culture shock value as not alot of foreign looking people speaks mandarin fluently. Blame it on people’s curiosity, as she looks differently than the other contestants. I think that China does have a long way to go to understand other people’s cultures and people and I don’t think that’s necessarily racist.

     And you want to blame this on American culture? Isn’t that a huuuuuge stretch? Most Chinese don’t ever see American news and movies aren’t movies restricted by the government to something like 20 foreign films per year? And aren’t American films full of different races working together as fellow Americans?

     Again, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. You’re right, most Chinese don’t watch American news, but rehashed news from like Chinadaily about the US. At least a good 20% is dedicated to news about the US. So all the news about gang violence (a good number by blacks) gets trickled down to the Chinese media. The only reason why many Chinese want to watch foreign films because of the lack of violence and sex in Chinese films. This is offically censored but thyey can probably can get a hold of these censored movies because they can download them and many Chinese understand English also.

109. Steve Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 8:39 pm

     @ pug_ster #108: Though we might disagree on this, thanks for keeping the discussion civil. 🙂

110. Nimrod Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 9:24 pm

     pug_ster Says:

     @FOARP 96,
     ”black people are dirty”, “black people are violent”, “white women are very loose”
     Blame it on the export of American culture. That’s what Chinese see in American movies and news.

     +++++
     For most people who hold these opinions, they’ve never met a black or white person or have known them enough to make these judgments. It’s what’s floating around in the collective conscious or cultural sphere as influenced by media portrayal or hearsay, mixed with a small amount of personal anecdote. It’s on the same level as some people’s opinion that “Chinese trinkets are cheap” or “Chinese toys are poisonous.” Stupid? Yes, but I maintain it is ignorance, not racism.

     And to S.K. Cheung, I don’t recall anybody ever saying Chinese people were “incapable” of racism, as you put it. I myself have said that if dropped in the same racially charged environment of some country that has experienced significant discrimination, Chinese people would react just the same as anybody. Instead, the discussion was always over, was it conveying the right sense to use “racism” to describe some undesirable behavior in Chinese society, since the word automatically comes with baggage that has nothing to do with the situation in China, and you know, we use words to communicate accurate information, not to inflame.

111. Raj Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 9:49 pm

     pug_ster (95)

     I’m not saying that Lou Jing is wrong here, I think that most Chinese don’t think that this is a serious problem. In fact, if Hu and Wen steps in to interject about racial discrimination, I think the Chinese would protest against the government considering there’s alot of ill feelings of Foreigners getting the preferential treatment

     That rather sounds like they wouldn’t get involved because the majority doesn’t see a problem with casual racism of the sort FOARP described in post # 96. If a majority of Chinese people really do not see a problem it is an even greater reason in my mind as why the people at the top should speak out against this sort of behaviour – especially because people like Lou Jing are not foreigners!!

     Sometimes politicians need to act to protect the minority against the prejudices of the majority.

     Nimrod (110)

     Stupid? Yes, but I maintain it is ignorance, not racism.

     Shouldn’t ignorance be corrected, especially when it hurts others? If hordes of non-Chinese consumer around the world thought Chinese goods were poisonous and boycotted large numbers of them resulting in a big drop in Chinese exports, wouldn’t there be a call from inside China to world leaders to inform their populaces that Chinese goods were safe and that at best the people who started the rumours were ignorant and at worst were racist?

     I don’t recall anybody ever saying Chinese people were “incapable” of racism, as you put it…..

     I remember a long discussion in which various people repeatedly asserted that there is little or no racism in China, just “political incorrectness”. Yet if someone uses the word “Chinaman” or “Chink” they will quickly be accused of being racist by Chinese people. The chances of Chinese listeners saying “oh, never mind they’re just ignorant” would be low.

     and you know, we use words to communicate accurate information, not to inflame

     It is accurate to say that there is racism in China and that the attitude displayed towards ethnic groups like Africans in China is racist. Racism is frequently based on ignorance, such as that ethnic groups have smaller brains than “superior” races, are more criminally-inclined, etc.

     A lot of people would argue that labelling racism as “political incorrectness” is inflamatory.

112. Charles Liu Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 9:56 pm

     Fauna @ 107

     “This is bad comparison”

     I disagree with you. If the green hat/black hat slur (it is a slur b/c of the refernce to her skin) had any reception, surely it would be repated by other netters. The fact is my search results show there were no interest in repeating this slur against Lou Jing, and you cherry picked this to demonstrate your “Abused By Racist Netizens” – while the fact is there were very few netizens involved in the racist abuse.

     133,000 results many not be all relevant, but it beats the hell out of your 7 – where only one “green hat/black hat” comment is about Lou Jing.

     – “He said you did not add any in your posts”

     That’s also incorrect. Minimum of 3 positive comment were cited in comment 50. It’s even highlighted by FM moderator. Are you blind?

     – “Life is always an incomplete picture.”

     And some expat bridge blogger such as yourself always seem to focus on certain aspect, seemingly to reinforce a certain POV and narrative of China.

     Same with Fallows, using your cherry picked obscure, extereme sentiment as somehow representative, whole picture of Chinese attitude towards race, is biased.

     Now you know the racist abuse is only an exterme minority sentiment, and Lou Jing said she wouldn’t write response like that, are you going to update your blog? I ain’t holdning my breath.

113. dewang Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 10:04 pm

     Excellent point, Nimrod, #110. I have a hard time imagining 75% of the Chinese population interacting with any Black person in China, even in the next decade.

114. Charles Liu Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 10:38 pm

     Exactely Dewang. How could anyone pin down a billion people’s attitude towards race with handfull of comments from selectively choosen forum posts?

     What Fauna’s and Fallows’ lot did with the few Chinese forum comments is equivlant to some Chinese blogger quoting comments from David Duke’s website and say “that’s the American attitude towards race”.

115. FOARP Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 11:06 pm

     @Nimrod – Chinese products are cheap, and to say so is neither ignorant nor racist, but a simple general statement of fact. Nor is it wrong to point out that they have on occasion been prone to variation in quality. In fact, this reads like a caricature of what foreign opinion actually is, as I have not heard the word “trinkets” used in conversation in a long time, if ever. It is of course a different thing to go after the people.

     Let me say this again – the quotes I used above were from graduate students. There was also agreement amongst a significant minority of them that mixed-race children were “disgusting” with one labelling Michele Reis “shameless” for talking about her mixed ancestry. Nobody spoke out against this, although I know that others disagreed.

     As for American movies being to blame for racism in China, pull the other one, it has bells on it. When even university textbooks describe western society as being prone to homosexuality and bestiality, and when slogans praising the genius of the Chinese race are often touted, you cannot think that the relatively new advent of foreign films can be the only cause of such sentiment.

     @Fauna – Congrats on the excellent website. I see nothing wrong with tabloid-style writing so long as it entertains and informs, and ChinaSMACK does exactly that. No amount of keyword searches can ‘prove’ or ‘disprove’ anything, and that Charles believes the opposite is just another symptom of his China complex. The nationalists on this website believe as an article of faith that all negative reporting about China is false and biased, and will never accept otherwise. It is pointless to try to argue with them, you might as well try to tell a mad-man that the sky is blue when he insists that it is purple.

116. Nimrod Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 11:18 pm

     Raj,

     Shouldn’t ignorance be corrected, especially when it hurts others?
     +++++
     Yes it should, and it is, being (very quickly) corrected by other Chinese peers.

     I don’t recall anybody ever saying Chinese people were “incapable” of racism, as you put it…..
     I remember a long discussion in which various people repeatedly asserted that there is little or no racism in China, just “political incorrectness”. Yet if someone uses the word “Chinaman” or “Chink” they will quickly be accused of being racist by Chinese people. The chances of Chinese listeners saying “oh, never mind they’re just ignorant” would be low.
     +++++
     Point taken, but once again, I think it has to do with the use of the word “racism”, which surely conjures up a higher level of severity than just being called epithets like “Chinaman” or “Chink”: perhaps it involves a level of malice that only existed in history. In any case, this says little about the capability of being racist. So far, the interaction of Chinese people with the rest of world have not been from a position of superiority. Under these circumstances, virulent racism isn’t something I truly worry about now, but maybe that would be a concern when China is powerful.

117. Jason Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 11:30 pm

     @ FOARP: The nationalists on this website believe as an article of faith that all negative reporting about China is false and biased, and will never accept otherwise. It is pointless to try to argue with them, you might as well try to tell a mad-man that the sky is blue when he insists that it is purple.

     This is such BS or your entire post is some kind of sarcasm. Either you are unwilling to accept our argument or distorting our argument of “that a few who is neutral or acceptable for this girl” is despicably wrong and that the guys in ChinaSmack needs a more unbiased story to tell and we STILL can talk about racism in China, I have no problem with that and neither will Charles Liu.

     FOARP, the only nationalist is you not me nor Charles Liu nor any people who wanted ChinaSmack to tell the full story of the other side and still talk about the racism in China.

     For FAUNA from ChinaSmack to come to tell FMer that it’s not their responsibility to tell the other side (which is quite a lot rather than “few”) and just focus on the “most” bad and a “few” good is utterly preposterous. It is YOUR duty to put unbiased story to let stupid (who thinks that just a few Chinese are neutral about this or positive about the girl) or intelligent (there’s has to be people who praised the girl or neutral) judge on the material.

118. Nimrod Says:
     October 22nd, 2009 at 11:32 pm

     FOARP wrote:

     @Nimrod – Chinese products are cheap, and to say so is neither ignorant nor racist, but a simple general statement of fact. Nor is it wrong to point out that they have on occasion been prone to variation in quality. In fact, this reads like a caricature of what foreign opinion actually is, as I have not heard the word “trinkets” used in conversation in a long time, if ever. It is of course a different thing to go after the people.
     +++++
     The point wasn’t to argue whether Chinese products are prone to breaking down or toxic — some are, most aren’t. It was to say: people throw off comments like these without thinking all the time. Some of the comments you quoted from graduate students are spoken in the same vein. Some African American men do commit more crimes. Some Africans are less hygienic. Some Caucasian American women do have more liberal sexual mores. But it’s not because they are African American, African, or white, but because, respectively, bad neighborhoods, poverty, and different culture. And it goes without saying that for those same reasons there are dirty, criminal, loose Chinese men and women, too. So what? Perhaps all you’re saying is there should be a different standard when it comes to discussing people because they have feelings. Fine. But that is exactly the realm of political correctness and, well, Chinese society seems to have different standards about that.

119. pug_ster Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 12:18 am

     @Raj 111,

     That rather sounds like they wouldn’t get involved because the majority doesn’t see a problem with casual racism of the sort FOARP described in post # 96. If a majority of Chinese people really do not see a problem it is an even greater reason in my mind as why the people at the top should speak out against this sort of behaviour – especially because people like Lou Jing are not foreigners!!

     Sometimes politicians need to act to protect the minority against the prejudices of the majority.

     I am afraid I did not elaborate about how the Western Nations treat racism. While Western nations made progress towards blacks, latinos/Mexicans, and jews in terms of racism, I don’t think they made any progress towards Asians (including Chinese) and muslims (most middle-eastern people) At least that’s the way I see it in here in the US. Yes, you will hear Politicians talk about it, but when there’s some hate crime happening to those kind of minorities, they are noticeably absent.

     To go further, a few months back there was a UN Racism conference where essentially almost all the Western Nations boycotted or walked out because Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made a statement about Israel. During his speech some protester wore a clown wig and nose and protested and other Western Nations walked out. The US didnt’ even bother to go to this event and the UK sent their lower delegates.

     http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8007991.stm

     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8008572.stm

     If the Western Nations are serious about racism then why did they walked out or not even showed up at all? While Ahmadinejad is not exactly the best person to talk about racism, that issue should be discussed. In Chinese media, they made made complaints of how Chinese Nationals living or studying in Western Nations are targeted for hate crimes or killed yet these very same Western nations did little about this. (You can see more details in other FM threads about this issue.) So in that sense, why should Chinese officals care about Lou Jing’s racism issue?

120. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 12:46 am

     To Nimrod #110:
     “Stupid? Yes, but I maintain it is ignorance, not racism.” — for one thing, you can maintain whatever you want. Good on ya. Second, if it makes you feel better to say that Chinese people are “stupid” or “ignorant” when it comes to race rather than “racist”, then I’m happy for you. However, I suspect the recipients of these attitudes perceive the same thing. So if you’d rather use words to excuse the problem, rather than identify it, that’s a position you are also welcome to maintain, as far as I’m concerned.

     “we use words to communicate accurate information, not to inflame.” — fantastic. So if prejudging someone by their race or the colour of their skin is not racism, perhaps you can offer a term that’s more appropriate in your mind. “stupid” might be a good one.

     To Charles #114:
     “How could anyone pin down a billion people’s attitude towards race with handfull of comments from selectively choosen forum posts?” — who exactly has been attributing those comments to the attitudes of all Chinese, exactly? It seems you are once again fabricating a point that no one is making in order to tear it down. It’s like a virtual reality exercise.

121. dewang Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 12:53 am

     Hi Guys,

     Last year, Buxi did an article, ““Chocolate City” – Africans seek their dreams in China” which is part of our FM featured posts. In fact, many of you commenting here were part of that conversation.

     I recommend a read there, then at least we’d avoid duplication of the points made there.

122. Rhan Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 1:27 am

     A bit confused what constitute racism. Can the minority race, weaker race, less powerful race become racist and perform racism?

     “Chinese” that is the majority in country like China, Taiwan, HK and Singapore and minority in country like US, Europe and others would be construed with same generalisation or case by case?

123. Jimmy Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 1:30 am

     @ Nimrod 118
     I can elaborate on the word cheap. Working in the manufacturing, the word “cheap” does not mean inexpensive, it means sub-standard quality. The place where I work took extreme measures to censor this word in order to reassure customers that the goods we sell are of good quality.

     @ Other comments
     I believe the discussion on how West also has racism is completely off topic here. West has racism, but what does it have to do with Lou Jing? Its not the West that attacked Lou Jing, its the Chinese that attacked Lou Jing. The truth is, despite how many people in China defended Lou Jing, the fact that the racist voice can cry so loud means China has a problem. Sure, the West is nosy and annoying and trying to stereotype China, it still doesn’t change the fact that this is a Chinese problem that is hurting China. We could play the 50 steps laugh at 100 steps face game against the West on this issue, but seriously, does it help China?

     Face it, this incident is bad not matter how you look at it. If people are serious on improving China, then admit mistakes like a man and solve the problem. If people really love China, then the China-bashing in the West should be irrelevant since they are written by idiots anyways.

     Seriously, be a bigger man on the racism issue. Trying to plant the racism issue on Western media just make us look like weasels.

     @ Rhan 122

     Standard definition:

     What is race? An outdated social concept that divide people along biological features.

     What is racism? An ideology that applies the race concept

     What is racism for? To justify the stratification/division within a society.

124. Steve Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 1:53 am

     @ Rhan #122: Anyone can be racist. Racism is judging someone based on race. It doesn’t matter what the cause is, it’s still racism. When I wrote in the initial post about racism based on ignorance compared to racism based on hatred, I didn’t mean to excuse racism based on ignorance. It’s still racism but it’s a form of racism that can be changed with education and interaction. Racism based on hatred is harder to change. But if you’re Lou Jing and a victim of racism, just because it is based on ignorance doesn’t make it feel better. It still sucks.

     To answer your other question, racism is racism, doesn’t matter where it takes place. So Chinese in China could be racist to non-Chinese, foreigners in China could be racist to Chinese in China, Chinese in the USA can be racist to others and Chinese in the USA can be subject to racism. There can even be racism in Africa. In fact, you can say that the situation in the Sudan is based on racism to some extent since it’s really an Arab/Black confrontation.

125. Ted Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 2:00 am

     @Charles 112: “Same with Fallows, using your cherry picked obscure, extereme sentiment as somehow representative, whole picture of Chinese attitude towards race, is biased.

     Now you know the racist abuse is only an exterme minority sentiment, and Lou Jing said she wouldn’t write response like that, are you going to update your blog? I ain’t holdning my breath.”

     No one is arguing that all Chinese are racist, only that there is racism in China. On the other-hand, there have been plenty of commenters in previous posts on FM who have argued that there is no racism in China, it is not as bad as it is in the US, or my favorite, “is not the same” so therefore somehow better. The negative comments toward Loujing illustrate just how similar racism (and sexism for that matter) is, East or West. I think many foreigners with experience in China, especially the smaller towns, will be willing to disagree with you on your “extreme minority segment” comment.

     @ Fauna 107: I’m excited to see you here~ I love ChinaSmack. It’s a great window into the wittier side of China for those of us on the steep side of Chinese language learning curve.

     What these netizens are writing is not racism, but loneliness.

     http://www.chinasmack.com/stories/loneliness-chinese-internet-meme/

126. pug_ster Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 3:38 am

     @Jimmy 123 @Ted 125,

     I am afraid that I have to disagree the very issue of racism in China is because of how the Chinese is perceived by the West. Ignoring it will be like ignoring the elephant in the room. You can blame on how the West treats China as a whole ever since the Modern China was formed in 1949. You can blame on how the Chinese perceives history from the Chinese perspective before 1949 and how the West perceives China as inferior in a whole. I’m afraid it is pretty much like a tit-for-tat, us vs them mentality when it comes to racism in China.

127. Fauna Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 4:44 am

     #112

     Your comparison is not comparable. “Black hat” is a pun with “green hat” by one netizen. You are comparing it to a statement by Lou Jing. Of course the statement by Lou Jing will have more search result. She is the subject of the controversy.

     You want to compare number of positive comments vs. number of negative comment. That is fine. However, you cannot do this by finding search results of one pun vs. search result of a public statement by Lou Jing.

     I did not say there are no people or only few people who support Lou Jing, I say your 133,000 vs. 7 example or argument is bad. You should not have to use such a bad example or argument to communicate your point. You should not lie about what I am saying or what other people are saying. It is not necessary to cheat.

     You are right that Steve did not acknowledge the positive comments you gave example in #50. That is my oversight. You are still wrong to accuse him that he said there are not any positive comments. You are also still wrong that your 133,000 results are “common positive quote”. They are not common positive quote, they are copies of Lou Jing’s statement. You misrepresent it.

     I am not “some expat bridge blogger”.

     对不起刘先生，看来你还是没看懂重点。Don’t be so CCTV/CNN （随便你选个）。真没意思。我和你没什么共同语言。逻辑是逻辑，而你这样的逻辑和不讲道理我实在不能接受，也没兴趣继续和你谈下去。简直把别人当成傻逼样的。无耻。

     #117

     When you can convince CCTV and CNN to take their “DUTY”, then you can tell me what is my DUTY. Until that time, you can start a blog and be a model citizen that we can admire.

     #115, #125

     Thank you for your support.

128. Jason Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:14 am

     @When you can convince CCTV and CNN to take their “DUTY”, then you can tell me what is my DUTY.

     I assume you would say that and just let your Fox Newsque sensationalistic news go by. Way to go for your journalistic integrity.

129. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:22 am

     To Jimmy and Ted:
     great posts. As I’ve said many a time before, and again in #86, the first step is to recognize a problem and own up to it. Many of the posts before #86 suggested to me that that was happening. Unfortunately, based on the last 40 some-odd posts, there appears to have been some regression. We’re heading back towards “ahhh, what you see in China isn’t really racism”, or, as in #126, the seeds of the current racist attitudes were apparently sown in the years before 1949. Once again, Chinese “racist” attitudes are everybody else’s fault. The guy may as well have said that the voices in their heads made these people utter “racist” remarks against this girl.

     I imagine some of these guys have their thinking caps on to concoct a euphemism for “racism” that might be more agreeable to their delicate palates.

     So much for worrying about assessing the scale and scope of the problem, or (gasp) discussing what might be done to mitigate it. Problem? What problem? “Racism” in China? Never heard of it. Sometimes it truly like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with some of the folks around here.

130. dewang Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:50 am

     Hi All,

     S.K. Cheung said “who exactly has been attributing those comments to the attitudes of all Chinese, exactly?”

     I don’t think anyone here has done that. I just hope there is vigor in helping us quantify the size of the problem. To merely say there is a racism problem in China is basically meaningless. Again, I simply remind people that about 750,000,000 Chinese are in rural areas who has probably never met a Black person – I feel sad that this lady selling vegetables on the street gets accused for being racist.

     Many of the comments on ChinaSmack, ChinaHush etc are indeed racist. Of course racism exists in China. I don’t think anyone here has said China does not have a racism problem.

     Can we not let this be a dumb debate between these two extremes ping-pong’ing back and forth?

     Not knowing Chinese is no excuse for not trying to find the truth through facts. So I urge finding us facts.

     For those who can read Chinese well, I strongly urge you to find facts as seen from inside China. I recommend an open mind, because, indeed, whatever the level of racism it is, it can only help China to have it diminished.

131. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 7:18 am

     “I don’t think anyone here has done that.” — you might consider informing Charles in #114.

     “I feel sad that this lady selling vegetables on the street gets accused for being racist.” — you just made the aforementioned statement, then you say this? Who’s accusing her? Has this vegetable-selling lady said anything that might be construed as being racist?

     “Of course racism exists in China.” — you might want to notify Nimrod in #110.

     “whatever the level of racism it is, it can only help China to have it diminished.” — agreed. You might want to notify the folks on your side to stop with the sugar-coating, forget about elephants in the room, and do away with looking for more gentile terminology. When they’re ready, then we can move to step 2 (size of problem) and step 3 (what can be done about it).

132. Jovian Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 7:43 am

     Hi all,

     I try to read all the posts here, but I guess that’s a bit too much to take in. Is it fair to say that there are currently two points-of-view in regard to racism in China with everyone participating here? One being that racism is racism, makes no difference if it is out of ignorant or hate whereas the second being that there are two types of racism; hatred or ignorant.

     Honestly, I don’t see the need to be so detail on the definition of racism; it is just complicating an already complicated issue. However, I did consider two people I knew very well and on how they would react to the Lou Jing story. I can see these two people reacting to the whole issue in a manner that can be call racism; that being agreeing with comment form someone that Lou Jing’s mother is shameless, and even that Lou Jing should not be consider a Chinese. However, I can also see that if I explain to them, they will come around and see thing differently; on the fact that it doesn’t matter if someone look different, they are who they are, and that people do make mistakes. Further more, if instead of explaining to them I have chosen to confront them on their views instead, I believe they will try to defend their views even if it is indefensible; I think pride might have something to do with that, or it is simply a case of them not being able to accept they were wrong.

     Lastly, we do have some really discusting people here in Australia. When my family first arrived in this country there were a racist group operating out of Perth. These are really nasty individuals; they were eventually imprisoned for committing murder. I do remember going to school seeing their poster calling us names that I would not care to repeat here. People like that don’t change, even after more than a decade behind bars. Fortunately, the police here didn’t take this kind of behavior lightly; the leader of this gang is current back behind bars again.

     On this I agree with Steve’s view, that there are racism from hatred and that are those who just don’t know better. It might be true that racism is racism; no going around it, but do we necessary need to force people onto an indefensible position to get our point across? At the end of the day, I would like to ask myself what I would like to see achieved on an issue like this one. Do I want to add people who are only following the racism they saw on a popular TV show to a list consisting of the most disgusting kind of human? Would that make me feel better?

     I have not watch the show that Lou Jing was on, and therefore I cannot say how I would have reacted to it. Furthermore, I don’t watch reality television like Australian Idol. Don’t like to see someone being humiliated on TV; that appears to be what reality television is all about, entertainment from humiliation.

     Ps. the two people I spoke of are my parents.

133. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 7:56 am

     To Jovian,

     nice post once again.

     “I believe they will try to defend their views even if it is indefensible” — if that’s the case, then it’s a problem for which they alone must bear the burden. And that is in no way/shape/form meant to be disrespectful to your parents.

134. Jovian Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:12 am

     Hi SK,

     I am using my parents’ example as a possible example of how people would react. I am happy with the fact that I would always do what I can to explain to them first, thus not letting them to bear a burden that they don’t have to. In doing that, I believe I can learn more for myself then from confrontation also.

     Cheers

135. Jerry Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:12 am

     @Jimmy #98

     Thanks for your comments, Jimmy.

     Your definitions seem reasonable. I need more time to reflect on them.

     I have heard Native American/Indian elders talk about the race concept. They have said that we are all brothers, with different robes. I know geneticists have shown that “race” is indeterminate compared to how the terms Caucasian, African-American, Chinese, Jewish would lead us to believe. And Fritjof Capra, the theoretical physicist (I dabble in theoretical physics) wrote in Turning Point, “ultimately these problems must be seen as just different facets of one single crisis, which is largely a crisis of perception. It derives from the fact that most of us, and especially our large social institutions, subscribe to the concepts of an outdated worldview, a perception of reality inadequate for dealing with our overpopulated, globally interconnected world…”

     As you can see from the definitions, instead of just saying people’ mind are the direct cause of racism, the real question is what is the huge divide in China that made racism/sexism acceptable? Was this divide present in the past? Will it be present in the future?

     So are you saying that the “huge divide” engendered the racism and sexism? Or did the divide evoke some toxicity/pathology inside them? Is “racism” some hard-wired archetype sitting in the remote reaches of the psyche? Or as Capra says, it is “a crisis of perception”? Does cognitive dissonance play a role here? Why are people sometimes xenophobic? Why do different people react to these feelings or toxicity differently? Or is this the old “chicken or the egg” game?

     I have lots of questions. I come from a Russian Jewish family. Why does my dad react differently to Arabs, who are Semites, differently than I do? I have written on this out here. I have written about the paranoia that seems to be infused into all Jews I have ever known, some more, some less.

     These are tough questions. I don’t think we will ever get to heart of it. As we approach resolution, we will see a larger picture and realize that these questions hit at much larger issues than we ever realized.

     Regarding China, Mao’s egalitarian reforms just suppressed and buried the toxicity. The lid has now come off. It will take generations to work through these issues, based on what I have observed over my life. Step by step, day by day. That’s ok. Shortcuts don’t work.

     Finally, this is all just a “work in progress” for me. C’est la vie.

136. vmoore55 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:03 am

     Nothing racist about it, those Chinese comments are not at all racist just rude.

     Want to know what real racist comments are?

     Go check out what the west has to say about William ( I think) Hung on the American Idol show.

137. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:20 am

     Dewang @ 130, “I don’t think anyone here has done that.”

     Not here, I was refering to what Fallows did. He titled his blog “Chinese… attitude towards race”, then went ahead cite completely one sided quotes by these “bridge bloggers” with an obvious agenda.

     If he is not trying to insinuate to his readers the examples “bridged” by Chinasmack and Chinahush as prevlance or the norm, why didn’t he go beyond these obscure references?

     Does Lou Jing really prove the degree of racism as suggested (which direction being suggest is evident by what they choose to cite) by Fallow, Chinasmack? I disagree, as my own search showed there are a lot more sympathy toward Lou than hate.

     Here are few more sorely ignored quotes by the expat bridge bloggers:

     “勿以肤色论英雄” – Shouldn’t judge by skin color

     ” “黑珍珠”娄婧证明自我” – “black pearl” Lou Jing proves self-worth

     “娄婧比模特儿更美” – Lou Jing is more beautiful than models

     “大家多谅解她吧” – people should cut her some slack

     “娄婧是个小天使，这与她的肤色无关” – Lou Jing is an angel, matters not what skin color

     “黑色只是普通的肤色” – Black is but a normal skin color

     Mr. Fallows, if you still believe the few cherry picked comments by Chinasmack and Chinahush represents “Chinese attitude towards race”, be my guest.

138. Jerry Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:26 am

     @Charles Liu #102, @Jason #103

     Charlie, you wrote:

     BTW you neglected to cite the link you used. What, afraid to show people most of these 582,000 hits are not racist?

     Apparently, your English comprehension skills are regressing. I wrote in #99, “using Google. I used the search term, “lou jing criticized””. Seems pretty clear to me.

     About my failure to cite the link I used, I must admit that the NSA asked me not to reveal it because it is a “national secret”. And Google asked me not to reveal it because it is a “trade secret”. You know, Charlie, it is all about the piracy issue. ::LMAO::

     Charlie, feel free to keep practicing your modern-day alchemy. Furthermore, I feel compelled to congratulate you on your sterling impersonation of Joe McCarthy.

     ####

     Jason, I could care less. My search is just as inane as yours and Charlie’s. I did it as a joke to show how ridiculous and absurd this is. We proved nothing! Well at least nothing relevant!

     But don’t let me discourage you or Charlie. Make yourselves happy!

139. Jerry Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:55 am

     @dewang #121

     Dewang, you wrote:

     Hi Guys,

     Last year, Buxi did an article, ““Chocolate City” – Africans seek their dreams in China” which is part of our FM featured posts. In fact, many of you commenting here were part of that conversation.

     I recommend a read there, then at least we’d avoid duplication of the points made there.

     Thanks for the link.

     Regarding avoiding duplication of points, please feel free to do as you please! As for me, I will do as I please. I like revisiting points sometimes and seeing how they have changed over time. Futhermore, life seems to me like a circle, and revisting points which have been made is just part of the process. I guess I am not on an efficiency kick!

     I know that sometimes my reflexivity and “knee jerking” bother you and wuming. But, to invoke another truism/aphorism, “It is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.” Sometimes I am reflexive, sometimes not. Ain’t life messy and inconvenient. Heck, c’est la vie! Vive la difference.

140. pug_ster Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 am

     The problem with racism not being contained to a certain point are government enact racist policies or groups form racist groups. Government enact racist policies like segregation, slavery and today what happened in Israel did to the Palestians. Many racist groups form today like the KKK, skinheads, and etc… Even with Mao’s policies, you can’t stop racism, but governments can stop racist policies and people forming racist groups to a certain point. That’s what the UN Racism conference is all about, containment of racism by some kind of effort with different governments.

141. Jerry Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 2:15 pm

     @Fauna #127, @Jason #117, 128

     Jason, you wrote:

     For FAUNA from ChinaSmack to come to tell FMer that it’s not their responsibility to tell the other side (which is quite a lot rather than “few”) and just focus on the “most” bad and a “few” good is utterly preposterous. It is YOUR duty to put unbiased story to let stupid (who thinks that just a few Chinese are neutral about this or positive about the girl) or intelligent (there’s has to be people who praised the girl or neutral) judge on the material.

     You are most entitled to your opinion, but to mandate to Fauna how she is to report, that is beyond the pale. It seems that, in your opinion, Fauna and ChinaSmack must be all things to all people.

     Let me quote from Bill Moyers’ book, ”Moyers on America”. Moyers is a lifelong journalist, a much respected journalist and an ardent defender of a free, robust and diverse press.

     So what must we devise to make the media safe for individuals stubborn about protecting freedom and serving the truth? And what do we all—educators, administrators, legislators and agitators—need to do to restore the disappearing diversity of media opinions? America had plenty of that in the early days when the republic and the press were growing up together. It took no great amount of capital and credit—just a few hundred dollars—to start a paper, especially with a little political sponsorship and help. There were well over a thousand of them by 1840, mostly small-town weeklies. And they weren’t objective by any stretch. Here’s William Cobbett, another Anglo-American hell-raiser like Paine, shouting his creed in the opening number of his 1790s paper, Porcupine’s Gazette. “Peter Porcupine,” Cobbett’s self-bestowed nickname, declared:

     Professions of impartiality I shall make none. They are always useless, and are besides perfect nonsense, when used by a newsmonger; for, he that does not relate news as he finds it, is something worse than partial; and . . . he that does not exercise his own judgment, either in admitting or rejecting what is sent him, is a poor passive tool, and not an editor.

     In Cobbett’s day you could flaunt your partisan banners as you cut and thrust, and not inflict serious damage on open public discussion because there were plenty of competitors. It didn’t matter if the local gazette presented the day’s events entirely through a Democratic lens. There was always an alternate Whig or Republican choice handy—there were, in other words, choices. As Alexis de Tocqueville noted, these many blooming journals kept even rural Americans amazingly well informed. They also made it possible for Americans to exercise one of their most democratic habits—that of forming associations to carry out civic enterprises. And they operated against the dreaded tyranny of the majority by letting lonely thinkers know that they had allies elsewhere. Here’s how de Tocqueville put it in his own words:

     It often happens in democratic countries that many men who have the desire or directed toward that light, and those wandering spirits who had long sought each other the need to associate cannot do it, because all being very small and lost in the crowd, they do not see each other and do not know where to find each other. Up comes a newspaper that exposes to their view the sentiment or the idea that had been presented to each of them simultaneously but separately. All are immediately in the shadows finally meet each other and unite.

     Moyer argues for a free, robust and diverse press. He argues against impartiality.

     I find Cobbett’s words most apt. And de Tocqueville’s words most inspirational.

     Fauna, you wrote:

     When you can convince CCTV and CNN to take their “DUTY”, then you can tell me what is my DUTY. Until that time, you can start a blog and be a model citizen that we can admire.

     Fauna, you don’t have to defend yourself. You are the editor, Fauna. You are also doing your part for a free, robust and diverse press.

     I can imagine Moyers, in his grandfatherly fashion, saying to you, “I am proud of you, Fauna. We need more young women like you.” Me, well, as the father of a 28 year old daughter, who is a doctor, I would say, “Fauna, you go girl!”

     Jason, you write in #128:

     I assume you would say that and just let your Fox Newsque sensationalistic news go by. Way to go for your journalistic integrity.

     Jason, you are entitled to your opinion. And we are entitled to accept your opinion, or in my case, ignore and reject your opinion. Ain’t freedom a great thing?

     Jason, I believe Fauna is doing her part in creating a free, diverse, and robust press. Way to go, Fauna!!

142. dewang Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 5:12 pm

     Hi S.K. Cheung, #131

     ““I feel sad that this lady selling vegetables on the street gets accused for being racist.” — you just made the aforementioned statement, then you say this? Who’s accusing her? Has this vegetable-selling lady said anything that might be construed as being racist?”

     Sorry. I honestly meant to say:

     “I feel sad that this lady selling vegetables on the street might get accused for being racist.”

     Why wait for other people to be “ready” to do step #2. Nothing says you and I can’t start to size the problem.

143. Jason Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 5:24 pm

     @Jerry

     The examples you gave have many and many voices especially Democrats who is a popular party group which can be picked by the MSM. For this Lou Jing situation, only a few or close to none hold to Charles Liu’s, dewang’s, and my views. And neither will Fallow and Latoya Peterson: http://www.racialicious.com/2009/10/06/lou-jing-china-and-expressions-of-racism-online/ publish 50/50 praise/racist posts of Lou Jing.

     And I doubt that MSM would pick a bunch of ordinary folks at FM to balance their report. And this is why I felt this story is not diverse and not free and not robust as you wildly claimed.

144. dewang Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm

     I hope people don’t mind focusing on Blacks first in China with respect to this racism topic. Adding other groups into the picture might be too much for us to chew on at first. Since we are talking about Lou Jing here anyways. Add the other groups here later.

     I also thought we get to the “common ground” first if we can, because that will help people be unnecessarily defensive on either side of the debate.

     1. Chinese killing Blacks by formal organizations like the KKK
     No.

     2. Chinese enslaving Blacks
     No.

     3. Chinese laws that are anti-Black or racist
     No.

     4. Chinese segregating Blacks
     No.

     I’d also say none of these exist today in the U.S., a country I am familiar with. I don’t think this kind of violation ever existed against Blacks in Chinese history, and thus, there is no such strong feelings inside China perpetuating the type of racial tension that exists in the U.S.. I commend the U.S. for continuously making progress, and given U.S.’s history of racism against Blacks, the modern day U.S. is doing a good job in my opinion. Just a way to look at it I suppose.

     5. Chinese police brutality against Blacks
     [I have started searching for stats, and please help me find data here.]

     6. Disproportionate number of Blacks serving prison sentences or put on death roll
     [I have started searching for stats]

     7. Racial profiling
     [I have started searching for stats]

     8. Workplace discrimination against Blacks
     [I have started searching for stats]

     What other dimensions should we look at?

     Another aspect of quantifying the problem, is obviously to look at how much interactions there are between Blacks and other people in China. I am trying to get some numbers:

     a. Number of African Chinese such as Lou Jing or the volleyball player who live in China
     b. Professional athletes such as those in Soccer and Basketball leagues in China
     c. African international students studying in Chinese universities
     d. Business and other travelers who are of African decent visiting China
     e. African traders/workers that now exist in China due to expanded trade between China and Africa

     I have found some numbers indicating 20,000 African business men and students living in China today.

     Please help with finding facts. I have to say, I have been at this for the last couple of days, and there is pathetically little stats in the English language about racism against Blacks in China on the Internet through the search engines.

145. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:12 pm

     Dewang:
     Those you listed ARE facts in U.S. Yes those things happen. HOWEVER, I am extremely disappointed and sad at your rhetoric that since those things happen in U.S. and it doesn’t happen in China, so China does not contain any Racism. I have in the past found many accounts of BLACK teachers that were treated poorly in China (out of ignorance) so let me ask you if that is not racism what is it? so discrimination based on ignorance does not constitute as racism? even though it is based on race?

146. dewang Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:24 pm

     Hi miaka9383,

     I am pleading with everyone to help find FACTS. Is that hard to understand?

     What other dimensions would you like to quantify racism with?

     Isn’t racism measured along those dimensions everywhere on this planet?

     Please don’t make those accusations. I hate to say it, please read my comments calmly.

147. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm

     See miaka, when Dewang pulls the same stunt as Fallows and Chinasmack, it done feel too good ain’t it?

     The fact is the selectvely translated, cherry picked quotes by these bridge bloggers aren’t representative of “Chinese attitude towards race” as suggested by Fallows.

     BTW, what’s your take on the Chinese netter quotes “bridged” in comment 69 and 137?

148. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:34 pm

     Racism is ALSO measure by how one treats another HUMAN being based on race! You seemed to forget that fact. I will not take this calmly because I am flabbergasted. To treat a black person with utter disrespect because of their skin color NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE is racism. It seems to me that you are justifying other racist behavior in China such as if I was to go to China and try to find a job as a English teacher, I would not get hired because I was black. If I was Indonesian, I would get treated like a servant. I am sorry. What are YOUR facts?

     P.S I acknowledged that the facts that you bring up are FACTS. But you ignored the other facts.

149. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:41 pm

     Miaka, “But you ignored the other facts.”

     BINGO!

150. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:43 pm

     Charles:
     Back to your point. Have you been to her blog? Have you searched on Baidu or any other search engine? The other day I read through 20 pages of comments on her, on some website I can’t remember. Out of the comments, there were 10% good comments the other 90 % were sexist and racist.

     You know I am done talking to you guys. It is ok if you want to cover up and not see everything. I know that the Chinese people need to be reeducated on the meaning of the race but attitudes and rhetoric like you guys does not help.

151. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:50 pm

     Miaka, “have you searched on Baidu”

     Please see my Baidu search citations in comment 50, 58, in addition to 69 and 137.

     What I found is nowhere near the 10/90 split you are claiming.

152. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 6:54 pm

     Charles
     Please see my qq link that I posted earlier. Btw just do some google search on “娄婧”

     or this link here http://www.jfdaily.com/blogart/74275.html

     oh and let me quote one of the users “把偷情生的黑人小孩显摆出来，就是不要脸”
     A black man’s children born out of affair is shameles… did they have to emphasize the black?

     or how about this one
     “既然是选东方天使
     那她一个混血儿来干啥
     没事搅局啊” if it is electing oriental angel then why is a mix raced person here, she has nothing better to do?

     and this one “这个婆娘
     黑得太不像话了
     扎个嫁得出去哦
     以后生个娃儿多半也黑得吓人” this is too ugly for me to translate…

     and this person is not even ashamed of the fact that they are racist
     “我就是种族歧视怎么了，黑不溜秋丑的要死，老妈还乱搞，还敢出来搞”

     one last one… “同感，还敢出来露脸，还美国人，记住是美国黑鬼，没准还是难民，领取每个月1000美元的难民费来中国潇洒了，你娄婧的妈妈也忒贱了，豪爽死吧”
     so if they are criticizing her mom’s behavior (sexist) the other one.. did they have to emphasize remember it is an american black man

153. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 7:07 pm

     Miaka, I found these in the same jfdaily thread disagreeing with the racist remarks. Oh let me quote one of the sane users:

     “你tmd懂个pi！中国人是四万年前从黑非洲来的，这是考古学和现代基因科学证明了的事情。”
     You know jack @#$%! Chinese came from Africa 40,000 years ago, this is proven by archeology and genetics.

     or how about this one:
     “娄婧没有错”
     Lou Jing is blameless

     and this one:
     “很佩服你的勇气”
     I admire your [Lou Jing’s] courage

     and this person feel ashamed for others:
     “自认为一番高论的鸟语,首先让我感到你真丢我们炎黄子孙的脸”
     your self-righteous BS made me feel you’ve lost face for all Chinese

     one last one…
     “应该让我们所有的人值得同情”
     they deserve all our sympathy

     That’s 50/50 by my count, Miaka. Where’s your 10/90?

154. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 7:19 pm

     Ok … 50/50 Charles you are SOOO right.. I also found other sites that proofs my 10/90 but since you want to be right all the time and be RIGHTEOUS then go ahead. You win. I am wrong. I apologize.

     I just want to post one last comment from her blog
     “骂这个黑杂种,可以说没有人有私利!为的是将祖先的基因传承!世界上任何物种,动物和植物,它的行为都是为了扩大自己的种群!
     不要动不动说美国,美国是世界各地人移民组成的国家,而中国是由大量原住民组成的国家,这决定了中国必然不能容忍的混血杂种,中国人本身够了,没有空间给混血杂种!炎黄子孙是这片土地的主人,炎黄子孙的祖先为这片土地抛头颅,撒热血!
     美国人呆在美国,我不歧视它,如果来中国,就应受到歧视,这样才能保证我们基因的安全!保证中国人种的安全!
     反对异族通婚,是符合科学发展观的,因为这样有利于保护现有人种,任异族通婚,会破坏现有人种平衡,甚至导致人种灭绝!
     可悲的是中国下贱女太多了,它们热衷于为异族传宗接代,是民族败类!”

     So you may just proof that 50% of the chinese netizens are racists. Let me switch the topic.. IS IT RIGHT? Does this constitute as racism? If you say no. I have nothing more to say.

155. Steve Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:22 pm

     OK, everyone’s had their fun but now I’m putting my foot down. This is an article about racism or the lack of it in China. It has nothing to do with any other country besides China, so no more “bait and switch”. It has nothing to do with web search hits, so no more “2,539,669 hits compared to 43” stuff, it’s irrelevant and completely non-scientific. Neither of these addresses the issue being discussed.

     The issue being discussed is racism in China. If you think there is racism in China, let us know what you think, how you think it can be lessened and whether you think that the episode with Lou Jing has helped bring the issue out into the open and opened up people’s minds.

     If you think there is no racism in China, say so. If you think racism in China quite small, say so. Use your own experiences to justify your position, not web searches or a few random quotes. We have enough of those from both sides already so we know the different positions.

     If you want to talk about different kinds of racism, please do so. If you want to discuss the underlying reasons for racism, that’s fine. But it’s time for people to actually THINK and not just copy and paste.

     The comments that are up can stay but future comments like these will simply be collapsed. They’ll still be there to read with one click but lately this discussion has been moving into the “ridiculous” category.

156. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:31 pm

     Miaka @ 154, “I also found other sites that proofs my 10/90”

     Mind showing us which “other sites” are you talking about? Care to cite them?

     I never said there’s no racism in China, just not the picture you are painting with the 10/90 BS you now can’t back up, or the kind of insinuation Fallows is making with Chinasmack’s cherry picked quotes.

     Why Steve had to put a question mark next to his “gone wild?” is obvious.

     And I honestly can’t find the quote you are attributing to Lou Jing. Please watch her interview, then decide for yourself if she is even capable of writing stuff like 民族败类.

157. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:38 pm

     @Charles
     Yes I do mind showing you the other sites. Yes my 10/90 is BS.
     You are right.
     You never said there’s no racism in China. But please stop painting a rosy picture that everyone in China is extremely accepting when it is not.

     @Steve
     Sorry, I am extremely aggravated. I believe that whether or not racism in China is out of ignorance is irrelevant. We should talk about how we can educate the chinese who never gets a chance to leave their country to treat foreigners equally. Just reading the comments from people criticizing Lou Jing makes me sad. Where is the self proclaimed open nation that is full of tolerance? I didn’t see it in this controversy.

158. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:42 pm

     Miaka, “We should talk about how we can educate the chinese”

     What right do you think we have to educate the Chinese? Are they somehow inferior to us?

     “Where is the self proclaimed open nation that is full of tolerance”

     In the 50/50 I cited you, which you are not willing to accept. I think it is you who can learn something from the Chinese.

159. miaka9383 Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 8:52 pm

     @Charles
     Did I say I never accept your 50/50?
     I never said the mainland Chinese are inferior than us. But they need to learn how to deal with people of different color. Because people who have darker skin are not inferior than them neither should they be treated like one. There are taxi drivers that refused to serve a black man. There are black teachers that were refused service at restaurants. They need to be rid of their ignorance and know that black people are not dirty are not ugly, they are human and not a sub species.
     Also, this also means they need to know that white people aren’t god or smarter or have more money. And if they want to hire English Teacher, they should hire on merit and not skin color etc…

160. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:00 pm

     Miaka, “they need to learn how to deal with people of different color”

     They are human and not a sub species; they can learn on their own. And by looking at all the support for Lou Jing and rejection of racism in Chinese blogsphere, I’d say they have.

     “There are taxi drivers that refused to serve a black man.”

     Are all taxi drivers in China like that? Are everone in China taxi drivers? Black man can’t get a cab in NYC is a standing joke in the States, does this prove “American attitude on race”?

     Please stop painting a pleak picture that everyone in China is extremely bigoted when it is not.

161. dewang Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:03 pm

     I see two competing priorities here.

     Priority #1: Do not defend the racists

     Acknowledge the problem. Racism needs to be addressed in China. As illustrated by the racist comments, racism indeed exists in China. This priority is particularly important because given what we know how Blacks suffered in the past, we know what racism can do, and it’s appalling to defend it.

     Priority #1: Do not let the innocent Chinese unfairly be labeled as racist

     Chinese around the world have been victim of racism. Biased criticism (intentionally or unintentionally) is to not be tolerated, because that further fuels racist sentiments against the Chinese.

     I propose the following set of metrics for quantifying racism as a problem in China against Blacks:

     1. Level of Chinese police brutality against Blacks
     2. Level of dis-proportionality in number of Blacks serving prison sentences or put on death roll
     3. Level of racial profiling
     4. Level of workplace discrimination against Blacks
     5. Level of interaction between Chinese and Blacks

     I welcome people adding to this list of dimensions AND facts.

     Hi Charles, #147
     Please re-read my post. I am not trying to pull any stunt. I am simply listing metrics that are relevant to the discussion.

     How else would you like to quantify racism?

     Hi Steve
     I am not sure if my prior post came across as a “bait and switch.” Given miaka and Charles subsequent comments, it came across that way. I am serious. Help me with the list of metrics and help me find data.

162. hzzz Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:47 pm

     FORAP Wrote:
     “Anyone who has lived in China long-term can tell you that they are, anyone who can speak Chinese can tell you that casual racism (”black people are dirty”, “black people are violent”, “white women are very loose” etc. etc. – and these are quotes from graduate students) is part of the small-change of Chinese conversation. The quoted comments are not un-representative of mainstream Chinese opinion, and arguing otherwise flies in the face of China as I and every other foreigner knows it.”

     And anyone who has lived with “foreigners”, let it be asians or caucasians or whatever in China can tell you that you hear the phrases like “Chinese people are dirty”, “Chinese smell”, “You can never trust Chinese” all the time. Simply read the posts at any Chinese expat messageboards and you will find threads dedicated to this sort of thing.

     The irony of course, is that that those who make broad statements like “Chinese are racist” are mostly bigots and themselves, because for the most part they will discriminate against Chinese or those who they perceive to be “Chinese”. During the Tibet riots I saw far more racism coming from the Tibet supporters than anyone else, in the name of anti-racism of course. Again, you don’t even need to look hard for this.

     That is not to say that Chinese don’t discriminate. Like every race in every place of course they do, and they can be vocal about it too. But that as the thread maker stated it’s mostly made up of ignorance. If you want to see real racism look up the the term “yellow peril”, or look at some of the propaganda made by Nazis against the Jews. Can you find any place in China today with signs which say “No Blacks or dogs” allowed? The last time when such signs existed in China it said “No Chinese or dogs allowed” and was created by the ever so enlightened “foreigners”. How about finding any laws in China which explicitly prohibit one race from performing things which other races can, like sitting in front of the bus? Or how about racist literature? I am not talking about rants like “blacks are violent” coming from “grad students” but popular literature which actually tries to justify the “master Chinese race”. How about organizations which aims to “purify” the race and kick out the “unwanted races”? Well, the pro-Tibetan/Uighur community in the Western nations are the organizations which advocate closest ideals to that. Don’t people ever realize that advocating the kicking off all Hans from a region to keep another culture “pure” sounds totally racist?

     All of these elements which points to real racism exist in Western nations and most remain even today, but they are not nearly as developed in China. I think China as a whole still way too homogeneous to be truly racist. Barring outside influences, just how do you become racist against races you even don’t know or don’t live along side with? You can certainly be ignorant, but to be truly racist you will need to living in the same environment as other races. Otherwise I don’t think it even matters; I can make jokes about Martians or proclaim Martians to be inferior to us humans all I want, but unless I actually meet a Martian whatever I believe on this matter is just ignorance rather than racist.

163. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 9:54 pm

     hzzz, this foreigner disagrees with Foarp. I think his “every other foreigner” is in reference to his “Feng Lao” lot.

164. EugeneZ Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 10:37 pm

     Wow. A truly fascinating story about Lou Jing. A lot of things are being talked about, a made-for-movie story, also great reality show materials. My mind is spinning since I just came across this amazing story about this girl. Do not want to miss the chance to offer my two cents.

     (1.) First of all, regarding the beginning of the story. 20 years ago in Shanghai, 1989 or maybe 1988. The mother had an affair with an American (who is black), he went back to US, not knowing she was pregnant. So far it reminds of Madam Butterfly, except the skin of the color. Then the husband divorces her (was it after he found out the baby was black?). One comment, one man’s adultery is another’s love story. The ones who were hurt was the husband, the husband’s parents, relatives, maybe Lou Jing’s mother, and her parents and relatives. Given it was 1989, it must have been hard for those folks. But why so judgmental here if you are an unrelated person? For any unrelated person who gets angry today in 2009 at Lou Jing’s mother about this incident, I say, chill it. It is none of your business, and aren’t you having an affair of your own anyways? For anybody who gets more angry at Lou’s mother because the man was black, I say, come on, what difference does it make it the guy is black or white, it is really none of your business. And does it matter at all that the guy is an African American or just an African. Love knows no boundary – or passion knows no boundary, shall I say?

     (2.) The mother chose to have the baby, I do not know why, maybe she was not sure who was the father when she still had chance to have abortion, maybe she was still in the marriage and the husband thought the baby was his and Lou’s mother did not have the guts to tell during the pregnancy? I think that they are some circumstances there. Again, Lou Jing’s mother’s best-selling book should reveal that. If the story is that Lou’s mother wanted to have the baby because she was in love with the American guy, and was determined to raise the child on her own regardless how hard it would be to be a very special single-mother in China in 1989, I would doubt it. I am just a bit cynical. Anyway, the end result, not surprisingly, she became a single mother of a black child. Please remember Obama is half black, half white, but he as well as the society identifies him as a black person – even though he was raised by a white household (his white grandparents and sometimes his white mother). It is not optional. If you are half black, half while, you can not tell people that you choose the option of calling yourself a white person. The society does not buy it, you wear your skin color outside. Same goes with Lou Jing. She is an African Chinese. What is unique here relative to the African American society here is that she is only one of maybe a handful of African Chinese of her age in a country of 1.3 billion people. That is what is unique about her, there is no denying about the uniqueness of her life story, her mother’s life story, and most importantly her identity. It is this uniqueness that is truly fascinating, exciting, interesting, and intriguing. You can call her “as Chinese as she could be”, but no way you can think that she is a typical Chinese, or she is like any other Shanghai girl we see on Shanghai streets. She is not a typical Chinese girl, she is one of only very few African Chinese in a country of 1.3B. Throw in her sex appeal, her life experience of being raised by a single mother while being a black person, and the fact that now she is out there, on the stage, in the open – you get an explosive mix to stir up a lot of conversations.

     (3.) Now given such unique identity, I am not surprised, and in fact, quite delighted, that she is now on the stage, out in the open, making the best use of her given unique identity. I applaud her, and also her mother, for doing the only reasonable thing – that is to take advantage of some of her unique quality to get out there, and hopefully, as a result, to advance her career, to get famous, therefore, maybe make some money, and do whatever they inspire to do, maybe even some charity work, like promoting Shanghai Expo 2010. I only hope that they have thought through this before jumping into it, there is no free lunch, you put yourself out there, there is inherent risk involved, so do not complain so much. But for us unrelated people, I do not think we should challenge them for getting out there, or more bluntly, for getting out there to try to become famous. We all take advantage of what our parents give us, be it a high IQ, be it a good look, whatever unique qualities we have, and we take it and run, and maximize our potential to have a meaningful life, whatever way we define it. There is nothing wrong with it. And it is not the same as the Balloon Boy, the Balloon Buy parents do not have those unique qualities, they want to become famous, so they do obnoxious things to attract attention, some of it not quite legal, and they take advantage of their own kids for their own career aspirations (by making their kids lie, and by putting their kids in harm’s way – taking them to the storms, etc.). Lou Jing is not doing any of that. Stop comparing her to Balloon Boy parents. Compare her to yourself. I did, and I do not blame her. When I was growing up, I discovered that I was good with math, that I usually ranked high academically relative to most of my classmates, so I took advantage of those qualities, and went on to pursue higher education, and as a result, I was able to have a fulfilling and comfortable life, etc. So far no one has blamed me for what I did.

165. Steve Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 10:47 pm

     EugeneZ, thank you for your comment. It says not only a lot about Lou Jing but a lot about you.

166. David Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 pm

     hzzz wrote:

     “How about finding any laws in China which explicitly prohibit one race from performing things which other races can, like sitting in front of the bus?”

     Try this:

     http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/10/kuerbanjiang-库尔班江-xinjiang-people-are-“welcome”-all-over-the-country/

167. FOARP Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:08 pm

     @Charles – You mean “this foreigner who has never lived long-term in China” which pretty much negates anything you might have to say on the matter. Have fun in the US, I hope you enjoy dissing Fauna, a Chinese girl – maybe you should check yourself for anti-China bias?

168. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:27 pm

     Foarp, “lived long-term in China”

     Pray tell, what’s the longest term you’ve lived in China? BTW “bridge blogger” is not an ethnic or racial thing.

169. FOARP Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:28 pm

     2 1/2 years

170. FOARP Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 pm

     . . . . and 4 1/2 years altogether. I guess this is where you shut the hell up.

171. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:31 pm

     I have you beat, on both account, pal.

172. FOARP Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 pm

     Oh really. So are you now going to claim that you have spent more time than you previously claimed? Or are you including Taiwan time in that?

173. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:36 pm

     “previously claimed”

     Care to cite it?

174. Steve Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:36 pm

     I would suggest everyone re-read comments 86, 125, 161 and 164. Racism exists in China. Outside of anonymous internet postings it’s not blatant racism, it’s subtle racism. Not everyone in China is racist. No one knows what percentage is racist; all we have is our own experiences within the culture to gauge its reach. The majority population in a country cannot decide what is racist or not since they don’t experience it and might not even notice it.

     I’ve talked to blacks in China; not many since I haven’t met many and what I’ve heard is this. Using DeWang’s five metrics posted in #161:

     1. Level of Chinese police brutality against Blacks – No one I talked to had experienced any police brutality.
     2. Level of dis-proportionality in number of Blacks serving prison sentences or put on death roll – No one I talked to had been arrested in China.
     3. Level of racial profiling – There was some of this. An example is entering a building and being followed by security though no one else was.
     4. Level of workplace discrimination against Blacks – Only one of the blacks I met worked in China, the others were all there as students.
     5. Level of interaction between Chinese and Blacks – They were treated politely by the Chinese they met, if they asked a question they were given a polite answer, but that was the extent of the interaction. They were never invited into a Chinese person’s house, were not able to make friends with Chinese, Chinese kept a distance from them socially.

     All but one of the blacks I met in China were from Africa. One was from the USA and working as an English teacher.

     This isn’t a scientific study, this is from personal experience. I’ve also had numerous conversations with different Chinese people about what they thought of other cultures, including Tibetans and Uighurs. I’ve always been curious about what others think and seem to have the talent to ask questions in a way that allows people to open up without feeling I am judging them, which is probably because I’m not.

     Since most on this blog have spent some time living in China, what were YOUR personal experiences?

175. FOARP Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 pm

     @Charles – Every damn thread you’ve ever been on. Bragging about your American citizenship. Oh, and wait, spending your early child-hood (say up ’till 5-6 years old) in China really doesn’t count either. Although it might explain your piss-poor English.

176. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:43 pm

     Steve, “No one knows what percentage is racist”

     Yet Fallows suggest what this percentage might be by citing obscure anonymous internet posting “bridge blogged” by Chinasmack and Chinahush, in is blog in part titled “Chinese attitude towards race”.

     My own experiences doesn’t jive with what Fallows is suggesting.

177. FOARP Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:45 pm

     Whoa, wait, seems Charlie-boy doesn’t have a witty rejoinder. What’s wrong Chuckie-poos? Cat got your tongue?

178. Steve Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 pm

     @ Charles: Fallows didn’t suggest any percentage, you’re putting words in his mouth. If your own experiences didn’t jive with what happened to Lou Jing, why don’t you write about your own experiences. And if you compare racism in China with the USA, Thailand or Tierra del Fuego, I’ll collapse the remark.

179. Charles Liu Says:
     October 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 pm

     Steve, I didn’t say he suggested an exact percentage. What Fallows is suggesting, by looking at the “anonymous internet postings” he decided to bring to his reader’s attention – is obvious IMHO.

     Fallow’s one-sidedness in his “Chinese attitude in race” is what I’m objecting to. Please see Dewang’s comment in 161.

     BTW, can you find any expat bridge blogger covering the Lou Jing story besides “this shows China is racist, not quantifiable but bad” POV?

     I think the “bridged” positive comments only exists here, no where else in the English blogsphere.

180. Steve Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 12:04 am

     Fallows isn’t suggesting anything, you’re implying he suggested it.

     Charles, rather than always putting down Fallows, why don’t you take me up on relating YOUR life experiences in China concerning race. You wrote, “My own experiences doesn’t jive with what Fallows is suggesting.” OK, I’ll buy that. What are “my own experiences”?

     I don’t spend my time looking at other blogs. This one takes enough of my time.

181. Charles Liu Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 12:40 am

     Steve @ 180,

     As to personal experience, not one person in China has ever said to me the kind of mean things Fallows cited, about black people. Then again I’ve only met one black person while in China. It was at my cousin’s home.

     As to other minories in China, not much other than eating at ethnic restaurants. Once I was told to bargan harder with a Hui merchant (because they are more clever than me), but as many are aware, barganing is a national sport in China so it didn’t feel like a race thing.

     Okay you may not have time, but I looked around and I can’t find anyone else who actually offered up list of (IMHO sane and majority) voices in Chinese blogsphere supporting Lou Jing and rejecting racism, like people have with the vitriol.

     And here’s an observation on what “bridge blogger” might be bridging to the English world about China – on Chinahush there’s a “topic map”, and the most frequent topics seems to be “Crime”, “Death”, and “Scandal”.

     How about the topic map on another bridge blog, say GVO? (goto China section and click on Topic) Their frquent topics seems to be “Politics”, “Human Rights”, “Governance”.

182. Jimmy Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 12:44 am

     @ Steve

     I have a fear that the blacks in China issue might not be subtle as you suggest, it might be that the Chinese “save face” mentality, or the government repression just force them to hide it.

     I discussed the chocolate city with some Chinese and this comment particular just strikes my mind:

     “The government treats blacks so good and and we have to be nice to them, yet the government repress us and treat us like dirt, aren’t we the same blood here?”

     As you can see, not only there are prejudices against blacks in China, but what’s worse is that the bias against blacks is also mixed with the hate towards the Communist government. It is a dangerous mixture of politics and race issues here.

     Part of the problem I believe is on how China portray Africa. During my research on Ethiopian military during the Korean War, the most of my findings in Chinese historical records is on how Chinese soldiers stopped fierce tribal African warbands in Korea, even through Ethiopia is a modern empire with a Westernized armed forces at that time. Any further research just return how primitive tribes function in Ethiopia. I mean, if the Chinese media made people to believe that the blacks are all noble savages, it is really a wonder that people demand the government to treat blacks like noble savages?

183. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 1:33 am

     To Dewang #144 and 161:
     I applaud your efforts for starting to embark on “step 2”, and for offering some parameters with which to gauge the scope and scale of racism.

     However, your categories seem to address “institutionalized” racism (by that, I’m trying to refer to systematic mechanisms of discrimination, like slavery, segregation, and workplace glass ceilings etc). On the other hand, it doesn’t address the “social” aspect (meaning interpersonal attitudes, social stigmas, “my son/daughter can’t date a black girl/boy” type stuff) to which Miaka alluded in #148. The first category might be easier to quantify. But I don’t think the second category is any less important or relevant, though perhaps much harder to measure.

     I don’t think Blacks being in jail in the US at disproportionately high rates is a measure of racism. You would have to contend that they are convicted because of their race. To me, they are convicted because of the crimes they commit. One can then ask why blacks seem to commit a disproportionately high number of crimes. There are probably complex social forces at work that drive such a tendency. But it’s not the “prejudging of an individual based on their race or the colour of their skin” which is my typical gauge for what is and isn’t racism.

     The other unrelated comment is why you’ve chosen to restrict the conversation to racism against blacks. It seems that China has many minorities against whom racist attitudes may be exhibited. While the answer to a number of your questions wrt blacks may be no, it might be interesting to explore what those answers might be wrt those 55 minority ethnic groups. It’s not just blacks in China who can potentially fall victim to prejudice.

     To EugeneZ #164:
     awesome.

184. Steve Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 1:48 am

     @ SKC~ Nice comment. However, I want to limit this discussion to blacks in China since this is a Lou Jing thread. We can look at minority issues, but I’d prefer we do that in a separate post. I think the issues with minorities are somewhat different than the issues faced by blacks in China.

     The other reason is that we’re already deluged with comments as it is. 😛

     @ Jimmy: Thanks for your comment. It’s better to hear about someone’s personal experiences rather than the same old anonymous quotes.

     @ Charles: Thanks for your input. As I said to Jimmy, so many of us have lived in China that sharing the value of our experiences there is where we learn the most from each other.

185. dewang Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 2:01 am

     Hi S.K. Cheung, Steve,

     The reason I propose we focus on Blacks in China is because:
     1. Lou Jing is Black Chinese.
     2. Confounding other groups might make it impossible for us to craw out of this thread.

     I proposed that we look at the over-all later on.

     Steve:

     1. Level of Chinese police brutality against Blacks – No one I talked to had experienced any police brutality.
     2. Level of dis-proportionality in number of Blacks serving prison sentences or put on death roll – No one I talked to had been arrested in China.
     3. Level of racial profiling – There was some of this. An example is entering a building and being followed by security though no one else was.
     4. Level of workplace discrimination against Blacks – Only one of the blacks I met worked in China, the others were all there as students.
     5. Level of interaction between Chinese and Blacks – They were treated politely by the Chinese they met, if they asked a question they were given a polite answer, but that was the extent of the interaction. They were never invited into a Chinese person’s house, were not able to make friends with Chinese, Chinese kept a distance from them socially.

     6. Level of Black and Chinese intermarriages (per S.K. Cheung)

     Anything else you’d add to the list, S.K. Cheung?

     I think its better to quantify racism on actual observable outcome. If a person holds certain racist views and never act on it and never harm anyone because of it, do we need to count this person as racist? He would have no material effect on anyone.

     But, I’d prefer to be less picky. So, feel free to add to the list of metrics. In the end, they all are pieces of fact, and some might be more directly related than others.

     If you don’t mind, help carry the “list of metrics” forward in your reply.

186. Steve Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 2:10 am

     @ DeWang: Thanks for lowering the emotional content and increasing the logical one. I want to address one comment you made, “If a person holds certain racist views and never act on it and never harm anyone because of it, do we need to count this person as racist? He would have no material effect on anyone.”

     I disagree based on what I’ve heard. The toughest thing for blacks in China is what I described in #5; the level of interaction. That DOES have a material effect on them. I guess you could call it “racism through ostracism”. Again, people unaffected by racism cannot judge the effects of racism, only the ones affected can judge.

     Rather than label it “Level of Black and Chinese intermarriages”, wouldn’t it be better to say “Level of interpersonal relationships” which would cover friendship, dating and marriage, along with typical daily social interaction?

187. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 4:20 am

     To Dewang and Steve:
     as I’ve often suggested, I’m all for quantitative evaluation. Heck, I’d even settle for semi-quantitative. But as I’ve also suggested, the “social” aspects are much harder to quantify.

     “people unaffected by racism cannot judge the effects of racism, only the ones affected can judge.” — agreed. Might never show up in a statistic, but there are effects all the same. “closet” racists shouldn’t get a free pass.

     I agree we should be assessing more than marriages. All level of social interaction should fall under the umbrella.

     However, the answers to all your questions will likely be “next to none”, partly by virtue of the fact that there are so few Blacks in China. Which is why people’s attitudes take on greater significance, rather than simply people’s prior behaviour.

188. hzzz Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 5:29 am

     David @166

     Are you sure there are explicit laws in China which forbids Uighurs from using the internet or getting hotel rooms? If there are I would like to read more about these laws. If this has to do with “security measures” following the XinJiang unrests then it would make more sense, but still if Uighurs are forbidden from using hotels or internet all the time then yes I would agree that would be a racist policy and should be condemned. On the other hand, if this is just private businesses acting out on their own following the Xinjiang riots then it’s a lot more complicated.

     This is because it’s common knowledge that many minority establishments don’t serve Hans. So what’s surprising about the vise versa? As a Han, I would not be surprised if I go into a heavily concentrated Uighur or Tibetan area and get denied service either, especially after race riots. This is exactly why I think there should be honest discussions about discrimination in China between hans and minority groups. The Chinese government of course, is still feeding the kool-aid to the general population about how the minorities love the hans, but that’s not true; the Tibet/Xinjiang unrests where hans were slaughtered proved that. Then you get to the aftermath, after the Xinjiang riot you hear about the Han retaliating. I think Uighurs denied services at other Chinese cities are part of a general back lash against Uighurs, not unlike the back lash against Muslims in the US after 9/11.

     But anyone who has been living in major Chinese cities can tell you that Uighurs living outside of Xinjiang have a terrible reputation as thieves and drug dealers for at least a decade or so. I am not sure how this all got started but there is a common perception coming from the Hans that Uighurs are often given the “get out of the jail free” card by the police because of their race. Even more so, some Hans believe that Chines Affirmative Action law gives too much advantage to minority groups. The case with the Han mob killing Uighur factory workers in Canton, the incident which is seen by Uighur groups as the catalyst to the Xinjiang riot, began with the local Hans believing that local police cannot apply justice to Uighurs (sparked by a false rumor about Uighurs raping Han women) and thus had to take the law into their own hands.

     Unfortunately, my family have been the victims of thefts from Uighurs in Shanghai multiple times, and each time the Uighur thieves were let go from the police station after getting caught. Needless to say my family is biased against Uighurs, and my family are not even Chinese citizens. Maybe it’s time for someone in the Uighur community to acknowledge and condemn the act of thievery? After all, we are not dealing with Robin Hoods here, we are talking about stealing cell phones and wallets from random 60 years olds on the subways.

     Since we Hans are the majority, minority groups would need someone like Martin Luther King with message which finds the common bonds between different ethnic groups in China rather than the typical message which accuses one with discriminating against another. Oddly enough, the Chinese government has been attempting to play this role, but the people don’t trust the Chinese government all that much in this regard.

189. Jerry Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 5:39 am

     @S.K. Cheung #187, @Steve, @dewang

     SK, you wrote, very insightfully:

     However, the answers to all your questions will likely be “next to none”, partly by virtue of the fact that there are so few Blacks in China. Which is why people’s attitudes take on greater significance, rather than simply people’s prior behaviour.

     Precisely, SK! Right to the point!

     When there are few previous manifestations (or should I say, recognized manifestations) of racism, sexism and hatred, it is very difficult to determine any viable metrics.

     Let me cite 2 examples.

     The first is Jackie Robinson, the first African-American Major League baseball player, who broke “Major League Baseball’s color lines” in 1947. Branch Rickey, the president and GM of the Brooklyn Dodgers (originally the Trolley Dodgers), knew about America’s long history of racism and slavery. Thus, he could easily forecast the spewing of hatred, venom, toxicity and racism which would ensue upon Robinson’s arrival into MLB. Rickey spent many hours, in advance, discussing his dreadful forecast with Robinson.

     The 2nd are the race riots in the 60’s which caught most Americans by surprise. They were unaware of the underlying tension and grievances in various American slums. When the figurative “bomb” went off, most Americans were shocked. Especially if it happened in their own city. One singular, common, every-day event (e.g., some black man being killed or harassed by police officers) would happen and the lid would blow off. It may have happened many times before, but that singular event became the proverbial “straw which broke the camel’s back”. Or you could call it a “tipping point”. Whatever.

     China doesn’t seem to have much precedent/facts in recognized manifestations of racism towards black people (I am skipping Tibetans, Uyghurs, et al for right now). But the problems of racism, sexism and hatred may be lurking right below the surface, looking for any reason to explode and spew forth. “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?”, the Shadow would ask. Lou Jing comes along and the rest is history.

     So I concur with SK when he says “Which is why people’s attitudes take on greater significance, rather than simply people’s prior behaviour.”

190. Jimmy Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 6:06 am

     Read this Xinhua report on Lou Jing, and you guys can see what I meant about Chinese media keep on portraying blacks a nobel savages.

     http://news.xinhuanet.com/overseas/2009-09/08/content_12014017.htm

     First page is the main story on Lou Jing, the second page give a background on African immigration into China…and what do you guys see? Bunch of naked tribal African woman running around. Given that this is not the first time I see the same picture from Xinhua on Africa related stories, then I ask, how could the Chinese not see blacks as nobel savages? I get offended when Western media keep showing pictures of cops in any stories about China, and I bet all blacks will get offended if the Chinese media keep showing pictures of primitive tribes with all stories about Africa.

     People keep on blaming Western media on creating bias against China via through its moronic news presentations, then in this case the Chinese media also need to take blame on creating bias against blacks through its equally moronic news presentaions.

191. dewang Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 6:52 am

     Hi Steve, S.K. Cheung, Jerry,

     Yeah, for some reason, this has been an emotional topic for me.

     Metrics and disposition:

     1. Level of Chinese police brutality against Blacks
     I’ve nerver heard of any. Do we agree this is none-issue?

     2. Level of dis-proportionality in number of Blacks serving prison sentences or put on death roll
     Do we agree this is none-issue?

     3. Level of racial profiling
     There was some of this. An example is entering a building and being followed by security though no one else was. Do we agree, if any, this is fairly mild?

     4. Level of workplace discrimination against Blacks
     None-issue?

     5. Level of interaction between Chinese and Blacks

     “They were treated politely by the Chinese they met, if they asked a question they were given a polite answer, but that was the extent of the interaction. They were never invited into a Chinese person’s house, were not able to make friends with Chinese, Chinese kept a distance from them socially.” – Steve

     6. Level of interpersonal relationships

     I think this is very low in China involving Blacks and other groups. If this metric is very high, that is a positive indication that there is also great tolerance of each other. If it is very low, then I tend to think it concludes nothing.

     7. Prevalence of “closet” racism

     How do you guys propose we look at this? If a country passes racist laws, it means that country is very racist. There would have to be enough “closet” racists + open racists to let the law pass. But, the visible outcome would be the existence of racist law. If a “closet” racist comes out and discriminates against a Black at the workplace, wouldn’t it manifest in our metric #4?

     Could you measure this through survey? Who would admit they are racist? What about people who don’t even know what it means? I’ve added metric #8 below – that would contribute towards “closet” racism. What other ways do human beings become “closet” racists?

     Perhaps you guys can think of a way to quantify attitude. Let me know what that metric ought to be and how to count.

     8. Level of media propaganda propagating racist views

     9. Invasion and killing of foreigners
     Killing IS the ultimate manifestation of racism. Hope you guys will agree this is a relevant metric.

     Hi Jerry,

     “But the problems of racism, sexism and hatred may be lurking right below the surface, looking for any reason to explode and spew forth.”

     Can you explain for me the 750million Chinese in the rural areas who have not yet met a Black person “explode and spew forth?”

192. admin Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 8:41 am

     @Jovian #132

     I think that it’s actually quite important to distinguish the two kinds of racism, one based on ignorance and one based on hatred, as defined by Steve. Please allow me to use an analogy of the current flu vaccination. Season flu and H1N1 are basically the same virus and they cause similar symptoms, yet we have one vaccine for seasonal flu and another one for H1N1. So in the same vein, we can eradicate racism more effectively if we take the root cause into consideration.

     @EugeneZ #164

     Great to see you around and nice post. I don’t agree with your first point though.

     First of all, are you sure that’s a love story? None of us really knows what happened 20 years ago. However, if a person was not directly hurt should not be angry at the mother’s adultery past (assume it’s true), then why should I be angry at racism against blacks? Or why should any person felt indignation on attacks on Lou Jing? None of us are related to her or her mother, so it’s not our business?

193. Jerry Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 9:27 am

     @S.K. Cheung, @Steve, @dewang #191

     Several comments.

     Dewang, I wrote “But the problems of racism, sexism and hatred may be lurking right below the surface, looking for any reason to explode and spew forth.”

     Please note the word “may”. It seems to have escaped you.

     I don’t know what toxicities and pathologies lay inside each of the psyches of rural people in China, or for that matter, anybody in China. I do not know the degree of those toxicities and pathologies. I do not know what will trigger expressions of those toxicities and pathologies. Will it come out as racism, sexism or hatred? Who knows? I doubt that you know, either. We get clues to the toxicities and pathologies when they become manifest. And maybe we are missing the subtle signs/manifestations of racism, sexism and hatred as we speak? Who knows?

     IMHO, racism, sexism, hatred, xenophobia, etc. are mere expressions of these toxicities and pathologies.

     The psyche is a strange and mysterious place.

     I would hazard a guess that some, if not many, of the virulent respondents to Lou Jing don’t personally know a black person.

     I will leave you in the capable hands of Mark Twain.

     “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
     — Mark Twain

194. Steve Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

     @ hzzz #188: It doesn’t matter whether there are explicit laws against turning away minorities from hotels, “de facto” is just as important as “de jure” for the person needing a room for the night. The question would be, can the person who was discriminated against sue the hotel and collect substantial damages for being a victim of discrimination? Somehow I doubt it. The other point not mentioned is that in China, edicts can be just as pervasive as laws when dealing with the real world. “Security measures” isn’t a law, it’s not on any books, simply an edict issued by someone in charge to deal with a real or perceived problem. Authoritarian governments govern more by edict than by law, which is one of the big complaints against authoritarian governments.

     Have you been denied service in a Uighur or Tibetan establishment? If not, then you’re engaging in speculation. If so, where and when? These are the kinds of examples that DeWang is looking for in his metric. However, since this thread is about Lou Jing, let’s limit the discussion to blacks rather than minorities, ok?

     @ DeWang #191: I’m with you on the first two points. My guess is that there is more racial profiling than you realize but it would take a black person living in China to substantiate the amount; I certainly can’t. That would also apply to point #4.

     I don’t understand the point you are trying to make in #6. Could you please elaborate? For me, this would be the most important metric of all. For point #7, I don’t think it can be quantified. My opinion comes from various discussions with Chinese people I’ve known about this particular subject or overhearing Chinese discuss attitudes about blacks over the years. I can’t quantify anything beyond that. What always struck me about it was the “matter-of-fact” attitude of the people speaking. I am 100% positive that if I asked any of them if they were biased towards blacks, they would all answer “No, not at all”. That’s why I keep saying that you can’t learn about racism by asking the majority, you can only learn about it by asking the affected minority.

     Point #8 is a good metric. If we just look at the questions asked and statements made by the hosts of the TV show Lou Jing appeared in, it’s pretty obvious that their statements propagated racist views.

     Point #9 makes no sense to me. What do foreigners have to do with Lou Jing? She isn’t a foreigner, she’s Chinese. Discrimination against foreigners is xenophobia while discrimination against minorities is racism.

     DeWang, you might not have realized it, but you cherrypicked what Jerry said and then misquoted him. He mentioned racism, sexism and hatred. You somehow managed to equate this with Blacks. Wouldn’t you say the riots in Urumqi were instigated by racism and hatred, both the initial attack on Han and the later attack (or attempted attack, depending on how you view this) on Uighur? Wouldn’t you say the acceptance of infidelity among married men while the condemnation of it regarding married women is sexism?

195. pug_ster Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

     @Jimmy 190

     http://news.xinhuanet.com/overseas/2009-09/08/content_12014017.htm

     First page is the main story on Lou Jing, the second page give a background on African immigration into China…and what do you guys see? Bunch of naked tribal African woman running around. Given that this is not the first time I see the same picture from Xinhua on Africa related stories, then I ask, how could the Chinese not see blacks as nobel savages? I get offended when Western media keep showing pictures of cops in any stories about China, and I bet all blacks will get offended if the Chinese media keep showing pictures of primitive tribes with all stories about Africa.

     I don’t see what’s wrong with Xinuanet’s articles. The first one about Lou Jing speaks of racism towards her so the Chinese media didn’t exactly sweep this issue under the rug. I wish that the Western Media could do the same toward the Chinese and Asians in general. The 2nd one is about the realities about the result of China and African nations doing business together. Many illegal African immigrants in China overstayed their welcome but they don’t integrate into Chinese society. The 2nd half of the article shows how some Chinese people that came to Africa a long time ago that ultimately integrated into African society. If it is about the picture of the bare breasted women in the picture, that’s the reality in many tribal regions in Africa today, they do dress like that, and the article didn’t say anything derogatory about them. In contrast, I don’t see these 2 articles as ‘Black-bashing’ at all.

196. Raj Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

     Nimrod (116)

     Yes it should, and it is, being (very quickly) corrected by other Chinese peers.

     Who do you think would have more impact – a national leader whose comments are regularly repeated across the media, or some random people on a couple of forums that most Chinese people won’t even read? It’s the former, really it is.

     perhaps it involves a level of malice that only existed in history

     So there’s no racism against Chinese people today in the world – or very little of it?

     So far, the interaction of Chinese people with the rest of world have not been from a position of superiority. Under these circumstances, virulent racism isn’t something I truly worry about now, but maybe that would be a concern when China is powerful.

     First, whilst I don’t believe that all Chinese people believe themselves superior, many of them do – at least to a number of neighbouring/other Asian countries. Second, I think if you don’t deal with racism in China at this stage it will only get worse if more Chinese people start seeing themselves/their country as being superior to other nationalities/ethnic groups.

197. Jimmy Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

     @ pug_ster 195

     But what does naked tribal woman has to do with news on Lou Jing, a Chinese living in China? It is completely off topic, it is selection bias, and it does not represent Africa at all.

     As my analogy on Western news bias on China, did you notice that almost every Western news on China, regardless of topic, ends with the sentence “China is under authoritarian Communist government”? My beef with Chinese news is that regardless of topic, every news on Africa ends with how tribal Africa is, every story on Uyghurs ends with something about nomadic herdsmen, or every news on Tibet involve monks. It’s true that China has authoritarian Communist government, it’s true that Africa is backward full of tribal people, it’s true that a lot of Uyghurs are nomadic herdsmen, it’s true that Tibetans are deeply religious, But is it fair to tag everything Chinese with Communism? Is it fair to tag everything African with tribal people? Is it fair to tag everything Uyghur with herdsmen? Is it fair to tag everything Tibetan with religion?

     What is racism? It is tagging qualities I mentioned above to groups of people base on biological features. By using the examples above, both Western and Chinese the media are neck deep in it.

198. Jason Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

     @Jimmy

     You say that Chinese media depicts Africans as tribal regularly…is it possible that you can show us more examples of this?

199. pug_ster Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

     @Jimmy 197,

     But what does naked tribal woman (or Africa) has to do with news on Lou Jing? It is completely off topic, it is selection bias, and it does not represent Africa at all.

     Maybe page 1 and page 2 has nothing to do with each other because it is a different story. If you had looked at page 3 and on, it has nothing to do with Africans or Africa. I don’t read much about Chinese media so I would not know. Maybe you think that Chinese media has some kind of subtile message of racism but from those articles you showed so far, it doesn’t seem like it.

200. Jimmy Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 9:09 pm

     http://news.xinhuanet.com/ziliao/2003-11/24/content_1195651_5.htm

     Xinhua background section on Africa…read the last paragraph you tell me what you think

     曾经多如牛毛、不可胜数的各种部落语言也逐渐被英语、法语替代。我经常怀疑，到底还有哪些可以算是黑人自己的民族特色文化？节奏热烈的土风舞？原始豪迈的羽毛装饰？粗犷神秘的木雕面具？即使在部落里，这些风俗也在褪色。在悬殊的文明竞争当中，被淹没的非洲原生传统越来越苍白，而对于西方文明而言，黑非洲则又还是未被接纳的边缘。不知道这算不算一种民族灵魂的丧失？

     The Chinese journalist for Xinhua is disappointed by African people don’t follow their culture and dance around the fire with big masks like Shaka Zulu…need I say more?

     @ pug_ster 197

     Okay, let’s say the second page has nothing to do with Lou Jing (even through the title on the top of the page has Lou Jing’s name on it)…what does illiegal African migrant has to do with naked tribal woman in Africa?

     “Maybe you think Chinese media has some kind of subtile message of racism but from those articles you showed so far, it doesn’t seem like it.”

     Replace the word “Chinese” with “Western”, and the word “racism” with “anti-Communism”, and you just sounded like those democracy do gooders that I debate with somewhere else. I don’t have to think about it, I study racism base on this kind of “subtile messages”. Yes, Xinhua does not intent to be racist, but presenting Africa in such biased way is just as bad.

     I’m no expert lingistics/sociologist, yet the fact that a layman like me can detect communication patterns like this just speak in volume about the social stigma against the blacks.

201. pug_ster Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 9:48 pm

     @Jimmy 200,

     I don’t see what’s wrong in this 6 year old article about Africa. It is talking about the consequences of westernization of the countries within Africa and the loss of culture and language as a result, hoping that they won’t follow China’s mistakes of the cultural revolution. I don’t see what’s so racist about this.

     “Maybe you think Chinese media has some kind of subtile message of racism but from those articles you showed so far, it doesn’t seem like it.”

     Replace the word “Chinese” with “Western”, and the word “racism” with “anti-Communism”, and you just sounded like those democracy do gooders that I debate with somewhere else. I don’t have to think about it, I study racism base on this kind of “subtile messages”. Yes, Xinhua does not intent to be racist, but presenting Africa in such biased way is just as bad.

     No offense, that’s stretching a little too far and you are starting to mis-phrasing what I said. Also, racism in China has nothing to do with western Media portrays communism in China.

202. Jimmy Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

     @ pug_ster 201

     “I don’t see what’s so racist about this.”

     It is racist to assume the proper culture in Africa is composed of dance around the fire with big masks like Shaka Zulu. You can try that youself, like find a black guy on the street and ask “aren’t blacks suppose to dance around fire with big masks and half naked?” Please do post the result here.

     Let me tell you what I know about African culture after a year of study, it’s trying to modernize, trying to merge native culture with Western culture, trying to reidentify itself after the tribal society is gone. They are speaking European language, but it has become part of their culture to speak European language. They culture is rebuilding, but not destroyed. To suggest that they should stay in their old pre-colonial culture (which African themselves consider it to be backward) is biased against Africans.

     BTW, that piece is a background file on Africa, suppose to be used as reference to other news published by Xinhua on Africa. Given the importance of such piece, bias like this is absolutely unacceptable

     “Racism in China has nothing to do with western Media portrays communism in China.”

     First of all its call “analogy”, meaning I’m drawing a parallel on media/racism bias between Western and Chinese media. Second, so you are saying Chinese media has no bias on the black issue, that whatever it does is fair?

203. Roadblock Says:
     October 24th, 2009 at 11:02 pm

     Steve 101,

     Have you ever studied the English grammar? The word “Oriental” WITH A CAPITAL LETTER “O” is a NOUN, not an adjective!!! It is different from the adjective “oriental”!

     Yes, one may be able to acquire Chinese citizenship with only one of one’s parents being Chinese. But a Chinese citizenship is not entirely equivalent to a Chinese identity. A recently naturalized Mexican-American who only speaks Spanish is certainly not as American as a preppy WASP boy at Andover, Massachusetts. An Arabic Muslim with British passport setting up bombs on London buses is certainly not as British as a Lord Arnold or Sir Anthony on Whitehall. They are probably not even as British as any John Smith or Joe Bloggs in rural Australia. Similar comparisons could be made between Turks in Germany and real Germans, or between Gypsies in Sweden and real Swedish. You get the idea. Likewise, a black woman, even though half-Chinese, cannot be an “Oriental”.

204. EugeneZ Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 4:29 am

     @Admin #192,

     Yes, Admin, I am around, and once a while pops in. This topic is truly fascinating because it is so multi-dimensional. I wonder if Lou Jing is reading Obama’s first book, “Dreams from My Father”, maybe someday she can write her own book. It was one of the best books I read in recent years. Lou Jing lives in a very different context, of course, so the book will be quite different. One, there are not so many African Chinese in China; Second, the history of discrimination against blacks in America should not be discounted, it is a very recent history and it is still not completely resolved, and the legacy of black slavery left deep scars in American society, there is no equivalent history in China against blacks.

     As for the point your brought up regarding people’s feelings towards adultery, your comment does make me think more deeply about it. I do not disagree that the circumstances 20 years ago were unknown to us. But let us assume that it was an adultery which hurt a number of people who loved and cared about Lou Jing’s mother, most harshly the husband. Whether it was a love story or not is actually irrlevant here. Assuming adultery, I am sure she hurt a lot of people back then. I remember the movie “English Patient”, it was a “love” story, but it was very hurting to the husband.

     I can only imagine the pain that Lou Jing’s mother rendered on her husband, a poor Shanghai man 20 years. It must have been devastating for him – just imagine the pain, the loss, the humiliation, the sense of great injustice and unfairness.

     The questions is – should we, unrelated to the family, 20 years later, feel anger towards the mother, and if so, should the anger be so strong that some of us feel the need to lash out against the child, who is Lou Jing?

     I believe that the answer depends on who you are, what kind of life experience you have had, how socially conservative you are, etc. Emotionally I do not feel much anger towards the mother, but that is just me. Rationally, I do not support her adultery (assuming that is what happened). It violates one of the values that I cherish, that is “do no harm”, and especially “do no harm to your loved ones”. If I had a sister or a female friend who is about to venture into such an adultery (regardless the color of the skin of the man), and asks me for advice, I will surely advise against it.

205. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 6:02 am

     To Eugene Z:
     great post yet again. And very cool that you are a fellow fan of the English Patient.

     I would suggest to people, in an effort to try to crystallize where they stand, to consider the following scenarios:
     1. If Lou Jing’s mother had committed adultery with a Caucasian man, would it have made a difference (beyond the simple fact that she would not look black, but rather, white).
     2. If Lou Jing’s mother had committed adultery with a Chinese man, how would that change things (beyond the simple fact that she would look as CHinese as the next girl).

     Now let’s go further:
     3. If Lou Jing’s father had committed adultery, and fathered her with a black woman, would that change things.
     4. repeat Q1 and Q2 above, only with Lou Jing’s father committing the adultery.

206. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 7:00 am

     To Dewang #191:
     I disagree with Metric #2, for the reasons I offered in #183. Ratio of death row inmates is primarily an extension of incarceration, though I suppose you could look further into whether prosecutors seek the death penalty disproportionately against black convicts for any given severity of capital offense. So that part may or may not have some legitimacy. But again, unless you propose that blacks are in prison because of their colour, and not because of the crimes they commit, then it’s really not a metric for racism.

     THe answers to #1,3,4 are predictable, as I had also suggested in #183. In #144, you indicated that there are 20,000 African businessmen and students in China. I don’t know how many Blacks are in CHina in total. If you accept that #1/3/4 are forms of “institutionalized” racism, then it shouldn’t surprise you that a subgroup of 20,000 (or how ever many blacks are in China) in a population of 1.3B are not likely to be the institutionalized targets for anything.

     I agree with your assessment of #6. Considering that there are 650,000 PRC citizens for every Black person, Black people in China would need to be supreme social butterflies for there to be any measurable interaction of PRC citizens with Black people. As Steve has suggested repeatedly, tough to judge racism when you’re not on the receiving end of it. Might be way more meaningful to survey Blacks in China about their perceptions of interpersonal relationships with CHinese.

     Regarding #7:
     “If a country passes racist laws, it means that country is very racist.” — but an absence of such laws does not equate to an absence of racism.

     The counterpoint would be that the absence of anti-racism laws might suggest that not enough people would choose to condemn racism. Now, this would assume that CHina passes laws that reflect the will of the people. Clearly not a safe assumption…but that’s for another time.

     “If a “closet” racist comes out and discriminates against a Black at the workplace, wouldn’t it manifest in our metric #4?” — it might, if it occurred at a sufficient frequency to be measurable. Again, this would be a great question to ask Black people working in CHina.

     “What other ways do human beings become “closet” racists?” — perhaps in the comfort of their own home, with their kids at the dinner table. As I also suggested already in #183, there are deeds, and there are attitudes. The latter is harder to measure, but no less important.

     “Who would admit they are racist?” — once again, that’s why you ask the victims, not the victimizers.

     Regarding Q9:
     “9. Invasion and killing of foreigners” — where did this come from? I thought we were talking about Blacks in CHina. If you ask this, then surely the issue of all other minorities in China would be fair game. Furthermore, killing is a manifestation of racism only if victims were killed solely because of their race. The objective of such an invasion would be the eradication of a race. How often has that occurred?

     Q8: that might be an interesting one.

207. colin Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 7:11 am

     “First of all, are you sure that’s a love story? None of us really knows what happened 20 years ago. ”

     Wow, that question opens a whole new can of worms.

208. dewang Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 8:43 am

     Hi Steve, Jerry,

     How about replacing #7 with “Level of racism experienced by Blacks” in China? I suppose if studies exist, they’d survey a representative sample of Blacks in China. I’d also expect the results to be calibrated against some “norm” or be compared with other countries.

     On point #6:

     I think there are roughly 20,000 Blacks in China, based on stats I managed to find. Let’s say, there are 20,000 “couples” mixing Blacks and non-Black Chinese people. As far as this metric goes, this is probably the highest attenable figure (say, 100%, but however, this is not a scientific number, and I am just trying to make a general point). In that case, this speaks about tolerance for Blacks in China – at least that 20,000 non-Black Chinese people are tolerant of Blacks.

     If there are 0 “couples” involving Black with non-Black Chinese, then we can’t really conclude much about this.

     On Point #9:

     I was thinking more about the invasion of Iraq by the U.S.. We obviously count every U.S. soldier killed in that conflict. But we don’t make much of an effort in enumerating killed Iraqis. The U.S. media obviously don’t pay much attention to the latter compared to the former. I thought there is a racist component in that. Sure, there is an xenophobia component in there.

     I am just rying to jump ahead a bit, because if we manage to gather real data about each of these metrics, it’ll be very interesting to compare China’s data against couple of other countries data.

     I don’t like the way I have defined it for #9, to be honest. But I feel there has to be something which captures this phenomenon.

     Jerry: “Dewang, I wrote “But the problems of racism, sexism and hatred may be lurking right below the surface, looking for any reason to explode and spew forth.”

     Please note the word “may”. It seems to have escaped you.”

     Yes, there was the word, “may” in the sentence.

     We know human beings are capable of doing very racist things. To me, comment #189 is almost tying to invoke this idea that Chinese are capable of such things and “may” do them any moment now. They are capable I am sure with the right conditions, just like every other people on this planet. But why bring this up when we are talking about within the context of racism of Blacks in China?

     So I found it very confusing on one hand, there is very low “recognized manifestation” of racism against Blacks, and yet, because of attitude, racism etc can explode. So, I thought I asked a valid question – how are these Chinese then going to explode?

     I am concerned about: Priority #1: Do not let the innocent Chinese unfairly be labeled as racist. Remember, a big issue on this thread has been whether the list of racist and stupid comments from ChinaSmack and ChinaHush represent the attitude of the whole of China.

     Steve: “DeWang, you might not have realized it, but you cherrypicked what Jerry said and then misquoted him. He mentioned racism, sexism and hatred. You somehow managed to equate this with Blacks. Wouldn’t you say the riots in Urumqi were instigated by racism and hatred, both the initial attack on Han and the later attack (or attempted attack, depending on how you view this) on Uighur? Wouldn’t you say the acceptance of infidelity among married men while the condemnation of it regarding married women is sexism?”

     The Blacks in China do not have any separatist movement to carve out a piece of China. So, I think the nature of tension between Blacks in China and other Chinese are very different. The riots in Urumqi is very complicated, and I wouldn’t say it is all racism. China has 56 ethnic groups. The couple that make the headlines have this very important separatist factor confounding the issue. This was one of the reasons why I propose we focus on Blacks first.

     Regarding sexism – I thought China made huge strides with Mao, and sure, I know there’s still plenty of work to do in China on this front.

     I thought Jerry’s #189 comments were all about attitude. But I think I am guilty of cherrypicking, and I catch myself doing that time to time. You still think I misquoted him?

209. dewang Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 8:46 am

     Hi S.K. Cheung, #206,

     I just saw your comments after posting mine. I did a quick read and I think I agree with most of your points. I’ll follow up tomorrow.

     Hi Guys,

     Looks like more interesting exchanges still – not necessarily related to metrics. Interesting, and sheesh, is this a time-sink!

210. Jerry Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

     @dewang #208, @S.K. Cheung #206, @Steve

     As usual, dewang, we disagree. And that is just fine with me.

     First of all, we don’t know what is going on in peoples’ psyche. We don’t know how they will react, unless we have evidence of previous manifestations. Then we have clues to their behavior, psyche and the stimulus applied.

     We do know that Lou Jing elicited a number, maybe many, racist, hateful, sexist remarks. Out of seemingly nowhere. And, IMHO, out of proportion to Lou Jing’s entry into the public sphere. That concerns me. Some tipping point occurred in some people’s psyches. How many people are we talking about? I do not know.

     I admire your attempt to create metrics to determine the scope of the issues of racism, sexism and hatred. Metrics can be valuable tools in measuring the problem. But by the very nature of metrics, even the best metrics, they are self-limiting. They only measure the quantifiable. Unfortunately (and fortunately), there are qualitative issues in these problems. That is difficult, because it requires human judgment and skill. Even comparing metrics between countries requires qualitative analysis. Life’s ugly.

     We know human beings are capable of doing very racist things. To me, comment #189 is almost tying to invoke this idea that Chinese are capable of such things and “may” do them any moment now. They are capable I am sure with the right conditions, just like every other people on this planet. But why bring this up when we are talking about within the context of racism of Blacks in China?

     Well, dewang, we are talking about China and a black Chinese girl’s controversy, aren’t we? And we did see an explosive controversy, which had elements of hatred, racism, and sexism. Hey, the insanity of some teabaggers, neofascists, anti-public option healthcare opponents, and birthers gives me cause for concern in the US. So similar insanity in China concerns me.

     Furthermore, you are taking one line out of context with what I have written here on this issue.

     So I found it very confusing on one hand, there is very low “recognized manifestation” of racism against Blacks, and yet, because of attitude, racism etc can explode. So, I thought I asked a valid question – how are these Chinese then going to explode?

     Well, it did explode. Maybe the Lou Jing incident is as bad as it will get, maybe not? Who knows?

     Furthermore, since many of us are not there, on the ground in China, who knows what subtle signs/manifestations of racism, sexism and hatred already exist or not?

     I am concerned about: Priority #1: Do not let the innocent Chinese unfairly be labeled as racist. Remember, a big issue on this thread has been whether the list of racist and stupid comments from ChinaSmack and ChinaHush represent the attitude of the whole of China.

     I am not labeling innocent Chinese as racist, sexist or hateful. It seems to me that these pathologies exist (e.g., Lou Jing incident). I have no idea about the number. I have no idea to what degree.

     That said, I am Jewish and I choose not to ignore things like the LJ explosion/controversy. I also generally concur with SK’s analysis of your metrics in #206.

     SK, I especially liked your comments,

     Regarding #7:
     “If a country passes racist laws, it means that country is very racist.” — but an absence of such laws does not equate to an absence of racism.

     The counterpoint would be that the absence of anti-racism laws might suggest that not enough people would choose to condemn racism. Now, this would assume that CHina passes laws that reflect the will of the people. Clearly not a safe assumption…but that’s for another time.

     And,

     Regarding Q9:
     “9. Invasion and killing of foreigners” — where did this come from? I thought we were talking about Blacks in CHina. If you ask this, then surely the issue of all other minorities in China would be fair game. Furthermore, killing is a manifestation of racism only if victims were killed solely because of their race. The objective of such an invasion would be the eradication of a race. How often has that occurred?

     SK, you are right on the money. There was a time in the US during which we had intense racism. We had very few laws against racism, if any. In fact we had “Jim Crow” laws which legalized racism.

     About the Uyghurs, Tibetans and migrant laborers who are treated like dirt… Maybe another day. 😀 Jimmy brought up the issue of classism in #98; so maybe we should add classism to this discussion.

211. Jerry Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

     @Roadblock #203, @Steve

     Roadblock, aren’t you just special? Thanks for the display of crackerjack, elitist, pseudo-intellectual racism. Steve, there you go! Racism — QED.

     Regarding “Oriental”, it is both noun and adjective. The use of the adjective is demonstrated in the sentence, “He has an Oriental rug.” Apparently, your grammar education is below par.

     And thanks for your contribution, “Arabic Muslim with British passport setting up bombs on London buses”. Sounds like a less than subtle jab at Arabs and Muslims, which is undeserved for the overwhelming majority.

     Thanks for wearing your hatred on your sleeve. At least you are honest.

     You are entitled to your opinions and lack of humanity. May our paths never cross!

212. Jason Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

     “Out of seemingly nowhere.”

     Are sure about that? Jerry. The racism and sexism came from what the mother did. What if the mother married the black man (who’s nationality and identity is still muddy) first without any involvement from a Chinese man before, what the outcome of the comments be different or same?

213. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

     To Dewang:
     my bad on the math in my #206. Assuming 20,000 Blacks in China, the ratio of PRC citizens to Blacks would be 65K to 1; not 650K to 1. Maybe my long division is slightly better in the morning than at night.

214. Charles Liu Says:
     October 25th, 2009 at 8:05 pm

     Dewang @ 208:

     “I am concerned about: Priority #1: Do not let the innocent Chinese unfairly be labeled as racist. Remember, a big issue on this thread has been whether the list of racist and stupid comments from ChinaSmack and ChinaHush represent the attitude of the whole of China.”

     Exactely. I challange anyone to find an article that emphasized how as many, if not more, Chinese netters defended Lou Jing against racism. I looked and I honestly can’t find one. Everybody, including Fallows, basically quoted China Smack to emphasize racism exists, and these cherry picked examples prove how bad it is.

     Just for the record, here are the sympathic, supportive comments I found on Baidu, they’re everywhere, often next to the racist remark they disagree with – which begs the question why didn’t China Smack translate those good ones, but only single out the bad ones:

     “洪晃：我们凭什么歧视混血女孩娄婧” – “Hong Guan: what right do we have to discriminate against mixed blood girl Lou Jin”

     “娄婧没有错，对娄母也应多宽容” – “Lou Jing is blameless, her mother deserves understanding too”

     “看中国男人怎对娄婧母女发邪火” – “observing Chinese male-chovanism againt Lou mother-daughter”

     “娄婧的呼声感人肺腑” – “Lou Jing’s appeal [to find father] moved me to the core”

     “娄婧天使舞台证明自己和大家一样” – “Lou Jing’s stage presence proves she is the same as everyone”

     “并不是因为她有着奥斯卡影后上海“哈利贝瑞”的称号。而是娄婧切身的故事” – “not because she resembles Halle Barry, but because of her life story”

     “勿以肤色论英雄” – Shouldn’t judge by skin color

     ” “黑珍珠”娄婧证明自我” – “black pearl” Lou Jing proves self-worth

     “娄婧比模特儿更美” – Lou Jing is more beautiful than models

     “大家多谅解她吧” – people should cut her some slack

     “娄婧是个小天使，这与她的肤色无关” – Lou Jing is an angel, matters not what skin color

     “黑色只是普通的肤色” – Black is but a normal skin color

     “很佩服你的勇气” – I admire your [Lou Jing’s] courage

     “自认为一番高论的鸟语,首先让我感到你真丢我们炎黄子孙的脸” – your [racist] self-righteous BS made me feel you’ve lost face for all Chinese

     “应该让我们所有的人值得同情” – they deserve all our sympathy

215. Charles Liu Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 12:24 am

     (I would leave this comment on China Smack, except my comments seem to have been banned.)

     Fauna, you came to FM defending your bridg blogging of racist coment and accuse others of being unfair and shameless. Do you mind telling FM readership why all the sympathetic quotes found in the very KDS forum thread you cited, for some reason are totally ingnored in your blogpost:

     “不要去歧视外地的，大家都是平等的” – don’t discriminate against outsiders, everyone is equal

     “小黑是无辜的” – Little Black [Lou Jing’s nickname] is innocent

     “这个小姑娘是无辜的，大家积点口德” – the little lady is innocent, everyone watch what they’re saying

     “我觉得这个母亲还是很伟大的” – I feel Mother Lou is quite admirable

     “小孩很可怜从小被歧视” – poor girl’s been discriminated since little

     “以后碰到你身上 你还能噶笃定” – wait til it happens to you, will you be so self righteous

     “单身母亲还是要理解的” – single mothers need understanding

     “小孩没什么错,大家别这么刻薄” – kids are never wrong, everyone stop being so harsh

     “大家不用这么说人家小姑娘吧” – people, there’s no need to talk about her like this

     “怎么说她也是讲上海话的土生土长的上海人” – no matter what, she is a local born and raised shanghainese

     “何必要这么搞臭人家呢” – why poopoo others like this?

     Why you have ignored all of them is obvious to me. You’ve also neglected to mention the fact over 300 comments in the thread, vast majority are not racist. Juvinile, sexist, misogynist, typical internet male culture – but not racist.

     I believe this proves you’ve cherry picked your quotes to make the story more than what it is.

216. Jerry Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 1:57 am

     @Jason #212

     “Out of seemingly nowhere.”

     Are sure about that? Jerry. The racism and sexism came from what the mother did. What if the mother married the black man (who’s nationality and identity is still muddy) first without any involvement from a Chinese man before, what the outcome of the comments be different or same?

     The reason I wrote “Out of seemingly nowhere” is that there seems to be no evidence or previously recognized manifestations of the racism, sexism and hatred which were exhibited in the Lou Jing incident.

     I think you are confusing triggers with pathologies and toxicities. I sincerely doubt that making public what the mother did created pathologies and toxicities in the respondents. I think that the pathologies and toxicities were already present in those people who responded so virulently. The LJ incident pulls the trigger and some, if not many, people’s pathologies and toxicities explode and spew forth.

     I have no idea what the outcome of your hypothetical would be. There is no previous evidence or precedent which I could use as a reference. Any guess on my part is mere speculation. Thus, I decline to speculate at this point.

     Is there any special significance to your parenthetical remark “(who’s nationality and identity is still muddy)”? Just curious?

217. Jason Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 2:58 am

     @Jerry: I sincerely doubt that making public what the mother did created pathologies and toxicities in the respondents.

     You did not got that from the ChinaSmack translations? I did. Comments like Lou Jing’s mother is whore, scant, or something in the same manner. Or how could “Let’s Go! Oriental Angels” promoted adultery? This to me triggers sexist and racist posts.

     Oh no you didn’t! Are you accusing me of stereotyping Black fathers? If not, why wouldn’t you accept this simple fact in this situation? The Black father that Lou Jing’s mother had an affair has no name and he can be African or African-American (as the fake Lou Jing’s claims).

218. Rhan Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 3:14 am

     First of all, I acknowledge the fact that there is racism in China, I present my question and view purely for discussion and in no way trying to debunk the acknowledged fact.

     1. Some question on racism
     According to Wiki, racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial difference produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Hence my questions are (a) is there any evident or scientific research to prove that racism mentality is measurable? (b) is there any survey and statistic to extrapolate that there is diverse scale of racism among difference race, ethnic, nationality and people of vary culture and religion belief? (c) is silenced a sign of no racism and vice versa? (d) is racism a human trait that reflect the ignorant worldview of race evolution within a certain socio-economy landscape or cause by a lack of exposure and education? (e) is the Chinese cliche of civilise versus barbarian a naïve tianxia (天下) notion of us and them, or an authenticate indication of racialism?

     2. Some case on racism.
     a) Some genuine case I know and live with it – Constitution that specified clearly the exclusive rights for certain race. Minimum 30% shareholding for son of soil. Quota for license, permit, and university entrance. Government job is occupied by certain race while private firm did the same, to hire base on race. Job advertisement mentions requirement like Bumiputra only, Chinese only, able to speak English/Mandarin. Less than 5% government allocation for vernacular school and no recognition of private Chinese school certificate that have worldwide recognition. Discount for certain race on house purchase.
     b) Some genuine case I know but can’t understand – Doesn’t Obama speak and write English language, embrace the America creed and Protestant values, respect the law and democratic spirit of the land so what is the big deal to select him as president? And why the black and white subject is such a popular topic in America? Is this not racism to the extreme? Don’t we think that the action and preach from the majority is actually intensify the problems and cause the rest of the world to put on a color glass?

     3. Lou Jing and racism in China.
     The whole topic related to Lou Jing is merely sort of sensationalism. The over simplifies judgement that Chinese is racism might not be a sound assessment. We must ask ourselves why the Chinese look highly toward the Caucasian and not so toward the Black, and I sincerely believe that the Caucasian and Black must take up a voluntary role to help offer a more comprehensive answer.

     4. Best cure for racism?
     From the psychology point of view, does racism pose any difference with class discrimination that are wealth based? If a modern society like ours find it hard to alleviate poverty and halt the rich from getting richer, I think the same may apply to racism. That said, the Chinese is quite notorious of clan loggerhead and ignorant toward non-Chinese culture and customs, and I believe this is the prime area that needs focus for improvement.

     5. Universal value
     I have the impression that our world universal values is more or less shaped by the “Western” political principles of liberty, equality, democracy, individualism, human rights and the rule of law. Many conflicts that happen today between the good and evil is mostly due to the noncompliance of evil toward the universal values as claimed by some parties. In order for the developing world to progress and to avoid various slip-up, is that not a human nature to evaluate the result, criticism, judgement, opinion and have it benchmarked against the best case in reference? Herein I refer to French and British in the earlier twentieth century and needless to say, USA of present day in order to seek for best solution and clarification? Or we favor a smugness kind of mood whereby the commenters here deduce that China racism is anytime fewer than country like Israel, Uganda, Congo, Indonesia, and my beloved country, Malaysia? Hence I suppose it is quite fair for some here to raise the relevant subject and relate it back to the role model.

     6. My view
     As aware, race, ethnic and nationalism was never the core conventional concept and philosophy among Chinese. Race base genocide and conflict that occur in Middle Kingdom is far less if weigh against most of other civilization. My view is therefore the condemn of China racism is dramatized of some that had suffered from Rousseau “The Confession” type syndrome due to what they or their forebear did in the past. Perhaps their enthusiastic expression of disapproval now is a sign of seeking repent. For their information, the sin was pardon long time ago. The recap, from time to time, is just a caveat to human being of how they should behave.

     PS/ Please leave my views isolated if it sound awkward and absurd, and let the readers to be the judge. In our world of reality and common sense, only true view survive through the end, I don’t mind if mine submerge into deep-sea water without even a slight ripple.

219. Roadblock Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 4:00 am

     Jerry 211,

     Yes, nouns are frequently and systematically used as adjectives. But it does not change the fact that they are nouns, rather than adjectives. Do you suppose that words such as “man” and “woman” are adjectives? None of the reputable dictionaries would define them as adjectives. And you, sir, must have below-par grammar skills.

     I was not expressing any sort of racism. It was certainly not my intention to sound racist. Allow me to clarify my position. I did not state that one must be white to be considered American. Many Jack-and-Jill type of black people are definitely no less American than that WASP boy at Andover. And a lot of recent white immigrants from Eastern Europe are rather un-American. What I meant to convey here is that national identity is a matter of degree, unlike legal concepts such as citizenship. To be a real Chinese requires more than a Chinese passport.

220. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 4:30 am

     To Charles,
     I think this discussion has moved beyond the google/Baidu level. Maybe you’ll come join us sometime soon.

     To Rhan,
     1. I personally wouldn’t use the Wiki definition of racism as you’ve stated. I think some “superiority complex” might be part of racism, but i don’t think it’s a vital or defining part.

     2a. Is this a description of some of the circumstances in Malaysia?

     3. I think the Lou Jing episode demonstrates that there is some level of racism towards Blacks in China. The prevalence of this racism is difficult to know. And it doesn’t include any possible degree of racism in China directed at other races.

     4. I think racism is prejudice based on race. Such prejudice can be manifested in other arenas as well, such as gender, or class, as you suggest.

     5. Perhaps it can be argued that sensitivity to racism is a “western” value. I suppose people can judge such values based on its source, or its merit. Hopefully the latter, but to each their own.

     6. I don’t think people formulate their values based on what their forefathers did or didn’t do. Whether or not yesterday’s racist acts and attitudes are forgiven does not change the concept that racist attitudes today and tomorrow are still wrong.

221. dewang Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 8:02 am

     Hi S.K. Cheung, #206,

     Metric #2: I understand what you are saying. But that seems to be one that’s talked about a lot in the U.S. within context of racism against Blacks there. This metric suggest there might be racism if the number is “high” and doesn’t say much beyond that.

     Metrics #1, 3, 4: If these numbers are low, it could also mean there is also little racism against Blacks in China. Sure, if there is some way to measure the view from the Blacks in China and the data can be normalized somehow, that’d be great.

     Metric #7: Agreed. Another “partial picture” metric – existence means the country is racist. Absent it means nothing.

     “will of the people” – yeah, let’s not go there now. I’ll just say different people have different take on that as we have seen.

     Metric #9: I am a bit iffy on this one now.

     Hi Jerry, #210

     If all this debate thus far boils down to your concern that there “may” be strong racist attitudes in the Chinese population against Blacks, I am ok with that position.

     I just saw Charles comments asserting that there are more supportive comments for Lou Jing than there are racist comments in China. I hope your “side” on this take that assertion seriously and try to find truth from facts.

     Hi Jerry, S.K. Cheung

     There is something to be said too though if collectively metrics, 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, etc turned up nothing, especially comparing against another country who has lots on these same metrics.

222. Steve Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

     Hi DeWang~

     You wrote, “Can you explain for me the 750million Chinese in the rural areas who have not yet met a Black person “explode and spew forth?”

     If China has 1.3 billion people and you subtract 750 million, that still leaves more people than the entire population of every country in the world except India. Why would Chinese in rural areas even be mentioned? And there aren’t enough blacks in China to have anything spew forth on a massive scale. Racism in China has to be measured individually. And again, none of your metrics take into account how blacks who actually live in China are treated since in no instance do we hear from blacks, and that includes all the positive and negative comments in the various blogs. Those comments reflect Han Chinese opinion, not the opinion of blacks living in China. That is the only metric that’s worth measuring.

     Concerning metric #1, here’s an article from the Guardian of an incident that took place in 2007, “Beijing Police Round Up and Beat African Expats”.

     Racism is judging someone based solely on their race. If you look at the example above, there were drug dealers working the Sanlitun area. Those drug dealers were predominantly black. Racism came into play when the police went from “look for drug dealers that are predominately black” to “all blacks in the area must be drug dealers”. Rather than questioning and searching everyone in the area to determine who was selling drugs, blacks (including an ambassador’s son with diplomatic immunity) were singled out and beaten. This is also against Chinese law, since the law states that only an appropriate level of force needed to arrest someone can be used.

     Is this an isolated incident? It might be; I don’t typically follow such things so I don’t think one incident can or should imply institutionalized police brutality towards blacks in China. I seem to recall incidences of Chinese/African student clashes at universities in the past, usually having to do with music or their dating Chinese women, but I think that was quite a long time ago and nothing that’s happened in the recent past.

     You wrote, “The Blacks in China do not have any separatist movement to carve out a piece of China.”

     According to most of our bloggers, myself included, neither do the Tibetans or Uighurs. Most everyone seems to agree that the vast majority of both groups want remain a part of China. But what does that have to do with black expats living in China? They’re not citizens, they’re visitors. That’s like saying the Chinese in Angola do not have an separatist movement to carve out a piece of Angola. Of course not.

     You wrote, “I was thinking more about the invasion of Iraq by the U.S.. We obviously count every U.S. soldier killed in that conflict. But we don’t make much of an effort in enumerating killed Iraqis. The U.S. media obviously don’t pay much attention to the latter compared to the former. I thought there is a racist component in that. Sure, there is an xenophobia component in there.”

     I don’t think it’s racist or xenophobic. First of all, the Iraqi casualties have been reported in the US because I’ve seen them several times. Second, it’s natural for Americans to be more interested in American casualties so that would get more attention, just as Iraqi papers would report Iraqi casualties but not spend too much time on American ones. I don’t believe this is a valid argument. If anything, it would mean that Chinese media would overstate the case for Han Chinese and understate the racism experienced by blacks in China.

     You wrote, “Priority #1: Do not let the innocent Chinese unfairly be labeled as racist.” Can we also include Priority #1a? That would be: Do not let the racist Chinese unfairly be labeled as not racist. Priority #1 would be advocated more by the majority while Priority #1a would be advocated more by the minority. Each is as valid as the other.

     Per your request, let’s stay away from the Urumqi riots.

     Regarding sexism: I agree with you that Mao’s China did a great job in redefining attitudes in a positive way. I ran across very little sexism in the office (except for the importance of hiring very pretty receptionists) with one big exception; the prevalence of the boss having an office mistress. I heard numerous complaints from female friends of mine when talking about their work places. Boss gets office mistress; office mistress lords it over the other women because of her privileged status, office morale plummets.

     When I first started dealing with our Shanghai office, the morale was terrible. Why? For this very reason. So we arranged a layoff. The mistress was laid off (she was terrible at her job), we hired a new country manager who was terrific, and created a new position for the previous country manager, making him a specialist who reported to the country manager directly and who had no one reporting to him. That took away all his power and that office went from having the worst morale to having the best in Asia.

     This also relates to the acceptance of the “mistress” in today’s Chinese society. The typical situation is for successful men to have a mistress or two. They aren’t hidden, but take part in social business situations. I learned not to make assumptions. I’d have to label this “sexism” since I didn’t see any Chinese women with “male escorts” in business situations. But since Lou Jing wasn’t anyone’s mistress, this should be irrelevant to her situation.

223. pug_ster Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

     @Jimmy 201,

     “I don’t see what’s so racist about this.”

     It is racist to assume the proper culture in Africa is composed of dance around the fire with big masks like Shaka Zulu. You can try that youself, like find a black guy on the street and ask “aren’t blacks suppose to dance around fire with big masks and half naked?” Please do post the result here.

     I respectfully disagree with what you said. Where do you get the idea of how an average Chinese thinks of Africans’ culture ‘is composed of dance around the fire with big masks like Shaka Zulu.’ Is it mentioned anywhere in the xinuanet’s articles?

     Let me tell you what I know about African culture after a year of study, it’s trying to modernize, trying to merge native culture with Western culture, trying to reidentify itself after the tribal society is gone. They are speaking European language, but it has become part of their culture to speak European language. They culture is rebuilding, but not destroyed. To suggest that they should stay in their old pre-colonial culture (which African themselves consider it to be backward) is biased against Africans.

     BTW, that piece is a background file on Africa, suppose to be used as reference to other news published by Xinhua on Africa. Given the importance of such piece, bias like this is absolutely unacceptable

     Actually the article mentioned the problem is that many Westernized Africans totally ignored their native culture.

     “Racism in China has nothing to do with western Media portrays communism in China.”

     First of all its call “analogy”, meaning I’m drawing a parallel on media/racism bias between Western and Chinese media. Second, so you are saying Chinese media has no bias on the black issue, that whatever it does is fair?

     I don’t see this making any logic at all, racism and china bashing are 2 different things. So far, of the examples that you showed so far, I don’t see any bias. I’m sorry, but if you keep saying that the Chinese media is bias without showing any substantial proof, you are ‘race baiting.’

224. Ted Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

     @ Dewang #185, 191,

     I think the first question should be, “what is the total number of Chinese nationals of African decent?” Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges and your categories, while well thought through are not applicable.

     “2. African Slave Trade to China
     No.”

     My understanding is that there was a Pacific slave trade to southern China.

     “5. Chinese police brutality against Blacks
     [I have started searching for stats, and please help me find data here.]”

     Let’s start with an official number of police brutality cases filed against Chinese citizens, then move on to Chinese citizens of African descent and follow that with brutality towards expatriates of African descent. Do you really think you will find stats on this? You are treating this like a system that reliably tracks this information… Here’s an article from 2007 on a police round-up in Beijing in which all those dragged from the club and beaten were black, including the son of an Ambassador. I’m sure you all remember this story.

     http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/26/china.internationalcrime

225. Steve Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 6:03 pm

     Per Ted’s comment #2, I’m not sure if China had African slaves but the reason was because they had no shortage of domestic labor, and so had indigenous slaves.

     Slavery in any guise is immoral to the modern mind, but was accepted and practiced all over the world in the past. Note that slavery wasn’t declared illegal in China until 1910. I believe African slavery is irrelevant to Lou Jing’s case so I’m not sure why it was brought up in the first place.

     Ted also wrote, “I think the first question should be, “what is the total number of Chinese nationals of African decent?” Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges and your categories, while well thought through are not applicable.”

     That makes sense to me.

     @ Roadblock #203 & 219: You seem to have no understanding of what it means to be American and yes, you do come off as bigoted. You wrote:

     “Yes, one may be able to acquire Chinese citizenship with only one of one’s parents being Chinese. But a Chinese citizenship is not entirely equivalent to a Chinese identity.”

     Why not? My wife was born in Taiwan, came here when she was 28 and is as American as I am, no more and no less. If Lou Jing doesn’t have a Chinese identity, pray tell what identity she has?

     “A recently naturalized Mexican-American who only speaks Spanish is certainly not as American as a preppy WASP boy at Andover, Massachusetts.”

     Wrong. The recently naturalized Mexican-American is JUST as American as a preppy WASP boy at Andover, Massachusetts.

     “An Arabic Muslim with British passport setting up bombs on London buses is certainly not as British as a Lord Arnold or Sir Anthony on Whitehall.”

     This sentence is so stereotypically racist that it doesn’t deserve an answer. Are you saying if Lord Arnold’s son was setting up bombs on London buses, he wouldn’t be as British as his father?

     “They are probably not even as British as any John Smith or Joe Bloggs in rural Australia.”

     Rural Australians aren’t British, they’re Aussies. Just because they’re a member of the Commonwealth doesn’t make them British. They have their own sense of national identity.

     “Similar comparisons could be made between Turks in Germany and real Germans, or between Gypsies in Sweden and real Swedish. You get the idea. Likewise, a black woman, even though half-Chinese, cannot be an “Oriental”.”

     If a person of Turkish ancestry is born in Germany, raised in Germany, speaks German, went to German schools and lives in Germany, that makes them German to just about everyone except bigots. The same applies for Gypsies born and raised in Sweden. And yes, a woman whose mother is Chinese and father is black, born in China, raised in China, living in China and totally immersed in Chinese culture is Chinese, Oriental, Asian, whatever you want to call her.

     Please don’t address any more remarks to me. I find your reasoning abhorrent and disgusting.

226. Raj Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

     Steve (225)

     Why not? My wife was born in Taiwan, came here when she was 28 and is as American as I am, no more and no less. If Lou Jing doesn’t have a Chinese identity, pray tell what identity she has?

     There’s an interesting point there that I think relates to views about who can be “Chinese”. For many “Chinese” people, it’s about ethnicity not nationality. That’s why a lot of Americans, Britons, Canadians, etc will tell someone they are Chinese before anything else, even if some don’t.

     Looking towards China itself, there is an often parroted comment that China is multi-ethnic as it has many official ethnic minorities. Yet they only form a small percentage of the overall population. Moreover you could argue that they serve to limit who can be Chinese – if you’re not Han or from an “official” ethnic minority, you can’t be Chinese, even if your passport says something different.

     I wonder how much this view can be expected to change, as with such a large population it’s unlikely that China will accept numbers of migrants large enough to change the ethnic balance of the country. The modern America was formed through immigration, so from early on the roots of a multi-ethnic nation were sown. The view of who is British has changed as we’ve accepted large numbers of immigrants from across Europe and the rest of the world. China’s creation was too long ago for an “immigrant nation mentality” to be sustained until today and there aren’t large floods of immigrants.

     Maybe if at some point a richer China drew in Africans and others for cheap labour, such that you had very large, established communities permanently living in various parts of China, having children in China, etc you might get a shift in perception. But I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

227. buru Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 8:03 pm

     Steve,
     forgive me this once for going off-topic: But I really coudlnt smile at the irony, that the racists spouting pure-breed theories here (basically masked anti-black )are prob the same ones who are trying to build-up the Chinese ‘Empire’ in Africa(since English speakers are relatively few in PRC).Good luck, till the Africans realise what u think of them that is..

228. Charles Liu Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 8:56 pm

     buru, @ 227, “wait til the Africans realise what u think of them”

     I’m really curious what led to you to conclude how 1.3 billion Chinese might think?

229. Ted Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

     Sorry my 224 should have been “Let’s start with an official number of police brutality cases filed by Chinese citizens”

230. dewang Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 9:48 pm

     Hi Steve,

     I’d say, not just the rural areas, tier 2 and tier 3 cities probably have extremely little interactions with anyone who is Black in China. Even in Tier 1 cities, its only confined to number of (rather statistically insignificant vs. 1.3 billion) Blacks living/traveling in China as we have discussed.

     I brought in the rural Chinese to simply make this point – the average Chinese contact with a Black person is very “minimal.” When we are talking about racism in China, it is easy to loose this big picture. I fear that many people in the “West” do not have any of this nuance.

     That said, sure, I agree with you meassuring from the Blacks perspective is more useful. Btw, I’ll update the metrics list to reflect later on.

     Thx for the link to the article.

     Please also note that the article said:
     “However, many African immigrants have entered China illegally and work as drug mules, a trade that is highly lucrative but which can bring the death penalty.”

     The article mentioned in the very beginning, this only involved around 20 black men:

     “At least 20 black men, including students, tourists and the son of a Caribbean diplomat, were arrested in a popular nightclub district of Beijing on Friday, several of the group being severely beaten on suspicion of dealing drugs, witnesses said.”

     You said:

     “Racism came into play when the police went from “look for drug dealers that are predominately black” to “all blacks in the area must be drug dealers”.”

     I think I rather draw a different conclusion. The Guardian article might suggest that, but that’s not what the two facts I got out of the article.

     The other thing was I didn’t see Guardian trying to find the view from the Chinese police side.

     You said:

     “Is this an isolated incident? It might be; I don’t typically follow such things so I don’t think one incident can or should imply institutionalized police brutality towards blacks in China. I seem to recall incidences of Chinese/African student clashes at universities in the past, usually having to do with music or their dating Chinese women, but I think that was quite a long time ago and nothing that’s happened in the recent past.”

     I agree. This is a fair take.

     “I saw a guy being beaten by these kids. He wasn’t doing anything. He wasn’t fighting back,” said one witness, a white American college graduate working in Beijing.”

     This IS indeed brutality in this instance.

     Btw, I found a report over at pravda.ru on this very same incident:
     http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/26-09-2007/97746-grenada_china-0

     I thought it really worthwhile to read how it was reported by another source. I have no idea about the reporting quality of Pravda. Also, I tried to find if Guardian did a follow up on this story, and it doesn’t appear so. Is the Guardian report decidedly more negative? Every reader must decide for themselves. For me, Guardian had much less information for sure.

     Regarding the “separatist” point, I think what you said is partly true. I don’t think you can say definitely WUC had no part in the riot. In fact, a WUC member was arrested for spreading false rumors about hate crime – stirring racial tension. The only point I make is the separatist elements make the racism issue much more difficult and they have this adding fuel to the fire type of effect.

     Regarding Iraqi casualties – I agree with you it’s natural for Americans to be more interested in American casualties. That’s human nature. I also believe if there is a few seconds silence for each time Iraqi civilians are killed just as done for each American soldier in American media, then I’d think the attitude towards the war would be dramatically different – even more so than it is now. You guys brought up “closet” racism, and so I thought this is too.

     Regarding sexism – thx for sharing that interesting bit about your company. I think the modern day “Western” sensibility to this kind of things in corporate culture has a very positive effect in China. I didn’t see any this type of problems when I visited customers and partners in China during my business travels. In every day life, I think culturally, China has some more shaking off to do in this area.

     In my circle of friends, I now see many Chinese women being more equal than men! 🙂

231. dewang Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 9:57 pm

     Hi Ted, #224,

     “I think the first question should be, “what is the total number of Chinese nationals of African decent?” Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges and your categories, while well thought through are not applicable.”

     You do make a good point there. I was thinking further down the line, let’s say, we have finished “evaluating” China – the next natural step is to evaluate some other countries like U.S., Spain, Germany, etc.. These various manifestations of racism will exist (or not). Then we do a more comprehensive comparison (then it will be apples and apples whichever metric exists and oranges and oranges who those metrics exist).

     Hi Steve and Ted,

     Slaves – this doesn’t exist today or are automatically condemned whereever might exist. So, it’s useful information to know what human beings are capable of. In fact, there is no question the Blacks suffered the most under the hands of the Europeans and Americans during colonial times.

     Looks like you forwarded the same link Steve did in #222.

232. Steve Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

     Hi DeWang~

     I’d guess that most black people in China are either in Tier 1 cities or in certain universities and cities with larger black concentrations. I have talked to black Americans who have taught English in places like Wuhan, which I’d guess is a Tier 2 city, but not sure how many are actually there.

     The “nuance” you are referring to is what I pointed out in the original post, that most racism in China is based on ignorance. So if someone has never met a black person or has never had any direct interaction with a black person yet holds racist and stereotypical attitudes, that is the racism of ignorance. That type of racism would not have any direct experience with actual blacks living in China but it can’t be dismissed because of that reason.

     The black perspective would measure more direct racism, that is, the actual treatment of blacks in China. I can’t think of any other way to measure it except through that means so I agree with you on that.

     I looked over that Pravda article and it said there were between two and three dozen black people detained from the police crackdown, so that average is 30 individuals. If, as you wrote, the population of blacks in China is approx. 20,000 individuals, then 0.0015% of all blacks living in China were involved. There are about 39 million African Americans. If I take 0.0015% of all African Americans, the number comes out to 58,500 individuals. So is this police incident equivalent to an incident in the US involving 58,500 black Americans being mistreated by the police? In statistical terms, yes. In practical terms, of course not. That’s why statistics are easy to manipulate to create all sorts of misleading conjectures and the reason I dismiss things like # of web hits or dueling quotations, etc. They prove nothing, just as my little exercise proves nothing.

     Your reply to my “Racism came into play when the police went from “look for drug dealers that are predominately black” to “all blacks in the area must be drug dealers.” was:

     “I think I rather draw a different conclusion. The Guardian article might suggest that, but that’s not what the two facts I got out of the article.

     The other thing was I didn’t see Guardian trying to find the view from the Chinese police side.”

     When I read the Pravda article, I saw this excerpt: “The American, who asked not to be identified because he feared police retaliation, said police first seemed to go after specific people involved in the area’s drug trade but then began rounding up all blacks. He said police forced him to delete a picture of the raid he took with his digital camera.

     His account was corroborated by online postings and other accounts of the episode.”

     DeWang, to me that exactly describes what I wrote. The police started by going after suspected drug dealers and quickly turned it into going after anyone in the vicinity who was black.

     Why didn’t the Guardian get the view from the police side? You might have missed this line, “Beijing police yesterday declined to confirm or deny the incident.” In the Pravda article, it also said, “An officer who answered the telephone at the Sanlitun Police Station said he was unclear about the case. The information office of the Beijing Public Security Bureau, the capital’s police, did not respond to a faxed request Wednesday for information about the raid.”

     Being that both Pravda and the Guardian received similar responses from the authorities, I don’t think you can say either paper didn’t try to get the view from the police side.

     To me, the Guardian and Pravda articles were very similar in terms of the story they told and how that story was presented. The Guardian seemed to talk to more sources present at the time but the Pravda article, obviously written later, went more with the angle of the Ambassador’s son. Neither seemed more or less negative or positive to me. Neither quoted the police because the police refused to offer any statement.

     You brought up the WUC concerning separatism. The WUC is composed of Uyghurs, but that doesn’t mean all Uyghurs are members of the WUC. In fact, very few Uyghurs are members of the WUC. So to say that Uyghurs are separatists isn’t true. That statement only refers to the actual members of the separatist organizations. So far, I haven’t seen any proof that the WUC was or was not directly involved in those riots. My suspicion is that a fundamental Islamic organization located inside Xinjiang was to blame, but that’s only speculation on my part. The key point is that if you paint all Uyghurs with the separatist brush, then you have engaged in racist behavior by engaging in an unwarranted generalization or stereotype.

     I don’t know if I can buy your Iraqi “closet” argument. After the initial attack, most of the innocent casualties were Iraqi on Iraqi, more specifically Sunni on Shiite or Shiite on Sunni. The US instigated a civil war over there; not a good thing and it’s still going on though not as bad as before. But media is going to concentrate on what is of interest to its readers, just as when China was in Vietnam in the late ’70s, I doubt they were writing sympathetic reports on Vietnamese casualties. I don’t consider them to have been racist for not doing so.

     My guess is that your circle of friends is married. Once married, the Chinese wife is always more equal than her husband, she just lets him believe it’s the opposite. 😛

     And if the Taiwanese wife finds out her husband is fooling around? Here comes the acid attack!! (I’m not kidding)

233. buru Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 10:56 pm

     #228 Charles Liu ”
     I’m really curious what led to you to conclude how 1.3 billion Chinese might think?”

     its immaterial if 1.299Billion Chinese think Africans are the best people on earth– because the Africans are going to meet the English-speaking Chinese who come calling…and inference from above comments show a fair percentage are racists( even among the overall Chinese lingo comments, one commentator above has said 50% were anti-Lou jing(just for being black, imagine!), another said 90%).The worst part is they dont even realize they are racist!

234. dewang Says:
     October 26th, 2009 at 11:29 pm

     Hi Steve, #232, (and S.K. Cheung, just slightly)

     LOL on the acid attack!

     Btw, regarding “nuance” – you are a very fairminded person, and bravo for you. I am definitely not concerned about you. 🙂 And sure, I agree with your distinction in the two types of racism. But S.K. Cheung’s comment #1 scared me a little bit – the police officer beating a Black person out of racism deserves to be punished by law for hate crime. The other police officer who is in the rural area for being a “closet” racist hasn’t done anything yet.

     Only other thing I’d add is its rather impossible for all the “closets” to suddenly “come out” at the same time. You’d seen the other metrics getting worse and worse first to alarming levels. Unless something dramatic is happening to the country – like wars and such.

     Regarding the 30 individuals – sure, stats in this case is problematic. If I’d guessed, there’d be reported drugs in a particular nightclub. So, I don’t have an issue where a particular club or two of them are targetted.

     I agree its brutality when someone is beat while peaceful and not resisting arrest – which was reported by a witness.

     Btw, the articles in Pravda.ru was written the same day – not later – as the Guardian article. Look at the date stamp on the articles.

     Regarding WUC – I didn’t say all Uighurs are separatist. They are obviously not. But WUC is a separatist organization. And, thx for bringing up this fundamentalist Islamic organization. Obviously these confound the racism issue – to all sides. Perhaps we simply see it differently, Steve. I think this is a big factor in fueling racism as well.

     On the “closet” argument – with the 1970’s war between Vietnam and China – I believe there were racist sentiments during and after the war. It must be because its human nature. Hard to believe otherwise.

235. Jimmy Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 12:00 am

     @ pug_ster 223

     I’m doubt I can convince you on the Chinese media bias help racism issue, since this is one of the more subtle forms of racism that S.K. Cheung had brought up which I’m trained to catch. I’ll just say that if you bring my analysis to any sociologists or linguistics, they would probably tell you the same thing.

     “You are ‘race baiting.”

     Please read my post #98 and post #197 on the definition of racism before accusing my of race baiting. I’ll repeat the textbook definition here again:

     Racism: An ideology that tag qualities to groups of people base on biological features. Western media tag everything Chinese with Communism, while Chinese media tag everything African with the tribal/pre-colonial culture. By applying standard definition, both counts as racism.

236. dewang Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 12:11 am

     Hey Raj, #226 (to Steve),

     “Looking towards China itself, there is an often parroted comment that China is multi-ethnic as it has many official ethnic minorities. Yet they only form a small percentage of the overall population. Moreover you could argue that they serve to limit who can be Chinese – if you’re not Han or from an “official” ethnic minority, you can’t be Chinese, even if your passport says something different.”

     I see you use this majority “Han” idea a lot.

     I have always wondered, is the existence of many minorities in large numbers a fact of diversity? Let’s assume every single race in the U.S. marry each other until there is a very uniformed mixed breed. First, I’d say, bravo! That’d be the ultimate form of uniformity. Does that then mean the U.S. is not “diverse” anymore?

     Have you examined the blood of all the “Han?” One can make an argument that because there are fewer people in each distinct minority, it speaks volumes about the tolerance for one another because they are all marrying each other.

237. Charles Liu Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 12:59 am

     buru @ 233, ” inference from above comments show a fair percentage are racists( even among the overall Chinese lingo comments, one commentator above has said 50% were anti-Lou jing(just for being black, imagine!), another said 90%).”

     So your inferences were drawn on the samples of comments that you were presented, am I correct? Do you realize the 50% was an incomplete count based on one forum thread, and the claim of 90% was proven false?

     Buru, I would like to find out how do you feel about the translated comments in 214 and 215? Because this story is certainly not so one-sided as it was being told initially.

     But I do think you have a point here, that unsuspecting readers often jump to conclusion (I’m sorry, you did) when they are presented inaccurate/incomplete story.

     Some call this shaping public opinion, some call this propaganda.

238. Ted Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 2:09 am

     @dewang 231: Opps sorry, didn’t realize I relinked to that article, I only scanned through the comments, there were alot while I was away. I agree that there is racism born out of ignorance as well, but this kind of racism will eventually turn into something worse. If you look at racism in the southeast US it grew largely out of a combination of the rapid forced equalization of the lowest white class and African-Americans and fear of reprisal from the former slaves for all the past wrongs inflicted. Unfortunately many southern politicians and individuals in the wealthier classes capitalized on these sentiments (That generalization comes from, among other sources, two books by Robert Penn Warren and views expressed by both Whites and Blacks he interviewed during various tours through the South).

     I agree that China is coming from an entirely different position but there are enough ingredients in China today for ignorance to turn nasty. Not to reach too much, but the current male – female imbalance in the birth rate and the wealth gap will most likely hurt the lowest and least educated classes or those far from larger population centers more accustomed to diversity. Clashes will undoubtedly emerge from the embedded stereotypes. I know we are focusing on attitudes towards blacks but I have to recall my experience sitting in a backwater train station in Zhejiang when a group of what looked like migrant workers walked past us and called my friend’s Chinese girlfriend a slut for dating a foreigner. The comments were out in the open in a normal tone of voice. There’s was probably a combination of their frustration with their own station in life, stereotypes of foreigners, and the constant hammering of notions like the hundred years of shame. No matter how much people want to view it as an aberration, the Loujing incident is an illustration of the direction things could go with certain segments of China’s population and shouldn’t be brushed aside as just more western propaganda.

     That last sentence wasn’t directed toward you dewang but a few others kicking around on this thread.

239. pug_ster Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 2:52 am

     @Jimmy 235

     Your posts in #98 and #197 doesn’t correctly define racism. Sorry.

     According to dictionary.com’s definition.

     1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
     2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
     3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

     However, your definition (I don’t know where you get this from) “An ideology that tag qualities to groups of people base on biological features.” doesn’t constitute racism. if I say most of Africian’s skin color are darker than mine, does that make me a racist?

     Again, you’re race-baiting.

240. buru Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 4:54 am

     charles#237,

     actually Charles to be honest my observation was given as a wellwisher of China(perhaps u realize it).I would be the happiest person if what you say is true…that racism is an overblown thing in China.The very fact that this topic is debated with so much gusto is a good sign; I hope such spirited discussions are going on in the Chinese language forums too.

241. Roadblock Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 6:26 am

     Steve 232,

     Haha, you are so funny and naive. You ask a couple of times in your response for my opinion and clarification, but then at the end you tell me not to bother to give my opinion. Are you intentionally trying to contradict youself? Or do you just not understand the use of question mark?

     In my opinion, you are simply engaging in wishful thinking, and refusing to accept the reality that almost everyone in China is of the opinion that being Chinese implies a certain kind of innate breeding. I am merely a humble messanger informing you of the prevalence of such opinion as a matter of fact. The merit or demerit of the opinion is irrelevant to the existence of the opinion. There is little point in being an opinionated, out-of-touch windbag, stubbornly yet futilely fending off this reality. Many nationalities can only be born into by blood, and the Chinese nationality is one of them. So are the Tibetan and Uyghur nationalities in many people’s opinion apparently. Otherwise, you wouldn’t find Free-Tibet slogans such as “one people, one nation” or “Tibet’s for Tibetans”. Generally speaking, nations in the “Old World” have more or less the same opinion on this issue.

242. Jerry Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 6:48 am

     @dewang, @Ted #238

     Dewang, first of all, I don’t know you. Secondly, I might be dead wrong about what follows. Last of all, you are hardly the only one who seems to defend China at all costs. What follows are my observations.

     Dewang, I am seeing a pattern in our conversations and others. You seem to be desperate to prove your contention/conclusion, in this case, that China has little if any racism. You want to develop or use metrics which prove your point; I suspect you would ignore the evidence to the contrary. You want to guide the analysis of the metrics to prove your pre-arrived conclusion. You are ignoring Feynman’s warning, “Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.”

     I understand that China is important to you. America and Israel are very important to me. But they are nations of humans. There are some humans who are nobler than others and some worse, no matter the country, no matter the race. Some good, some bad.

     I freely criticize and praise my own country. I criticize and praise Israel. I criticize and praise Taiwan. And I criticize and praise China. Nobody’s perfect and nobody is all bad. I just call it like I see it. And I have been wrong at times.

     China has some people with racist, sexist, hateful feelings and beliefs, fueled by toxicities and pathologies in the psyche. And they can also be strengthened by the inequities we find in life. How many people, I can’t say? To what degree, I can’t say?

     Racism, hatred, sexism, et al are serious issues. Ted in #238 brings up the anecdote about the hateful comment to a Chinese woman dating a foreigner. Ted discusses some of the inequities which exist in China which can add the proverbial “fuel to the fire” to the toxicities and pathologies in the psyche.

     Ted goes on to describe conditions and tensions in the South and Robert Penn Warren’s books and interviews (He was one of the most progressive Southerners of his day; he also was Poet Laureate of the US and won a Pulitzer Prize). I might add the Jim Crow laws which were passed after the Civil War. I know about the politicians, using racist populism, using the former slaves as “whipping boys”, to manipulate the populace for their own advantage and ensuring their power. The Tsars did the same thing in Russia, using the Jews as “whipping boys”.

     The Lou Jing incident, Ted’s observations and various fenqing incidents in the past few years indicate to me that China bears watching. I am Jewish; I know that ignoring hatred, racism, sexism, etc. has disastrous consequences.

243. dewang Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 6:55 am

     Hi Ted, #238,

     Thx for sharing about Robert Penn Warren. I should read up on that some day.

     “No matter how much people want to view it as an aberration, the Loujing incident is an illustration of the direction things could go with certain segments of China’s population and shouldn’t be brushed aside as just more western propaganda.”

     I agree with that.

     But I bet many of the comments “appearing” to be “brushing aside the criticisms as western propaganda” are actually saying something different. They probably in fact accept the fact that there is racism in China – and some might think it is not a big problem in China. They are foremost concerned with Chinese being wrongfully accused of being racist, a stereotyping they feel very harmful done in the “west.”

     Anyways, I really appreciate your sincere tone and attitude towards this issue, because I think you have found the right way to reach the “other” side. 🙂 A poster child on how to comment given how explosive this issue seems to have been.

244. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 7:09 am

     To Dewang #221:
     “There is something to be said too though if collectively metrics, 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, etc turned up nothing, especially comparing against another country who has lots on these same metrics.” — since #2 is a non-starter for me, and there aren’t enough Blacks in China to expect there to be any significant prevalence of 1/3/4, we’re left with #7, which we’ve also said is better determined from the perspective of Blacks in China, to which we are not privy. So as Ted suggests, those metrics are a good starting point, but on further examination likely won’t be able to measure what we’d like to measure. And since this is a discussion of racism towards Blacks in China, I’m not sure of the relevance of applying similar metrics in any other nation.

     #230:
     “the average Chinese contact with a Black person is very “minimal.” When we are talking about racism in China, it is easy to loose this big picture. I fear that many people in the “West” do not have any of this nuance.” — again, this is why I suggested it is important to not just focus on prior actions, but also current attitudes. Here’s another question: if a Chinese person harbours racist attitudes towards Blacks, having never met/seen/interacted with one in their lifetime, where do you think such attitudes came from?

     “Regarding the “separatist” point” — that whole argument doesn’t sit well with me. If racism is the prejudging of an individual or individuals based solely on their race/colour of their skin, then it’s somehow less abhorrent to harbour such attitudes against an entire race if some member(s) of that race might be agitating to separate from your country? That’s like saying racism is okay under certain conditions. That totally doesn’t fly with me, either as an excuse or as an explanation.

     To #231:
     “there is no question the Blacks suffered the most under the hands of the Europeans and Americans during colonial times.” — even if that is true, how is that remotely relevant if your earlier contention is to keep the focus on Blacks in China?

     To #234:
     “The other police officer who is in the rural area for being a “closet” racist hasn’t done anything yet.” — and therefore hasn’t yet broken any laws. But the presence of such attitudes makes him no less racist than the other cop who’d acted out his thoughts, just less prosecutable.

     “its rather impossible for all the “closets” to suddenly “come out” at the same time. You’d seen the other metrics getting worse and worse first to alarming levels.” — but even if every single last Black person in China suffered from racism, there would still not be enough events to register a blip, let alone achieve “alarming levels” on your metrics.

     I don’t see how a separatism angle “confounds” the racism issue, unless you allow it to justify racism, or choose to turn a blind eye towards racism borne of anti-separatist sentiments.

     To #236:
     “That’d be the ultimate form of uniformity. Does that then mean the U.S. is not “diverse” anymore?” — it would to me, for no other reason that uniformity and diversity are opposites. But I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here.

     To Pugster #239:
     what on earth is “race-baiting”, particularly on a thread whose central theme is racism?

     To buru #240:
     that’s a good one. Yes, some people do have a tendency to assume that all things that potentially reflect poorly on China are by definition overblown. Must be a comforting frame of mind.

245. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 7:24 am

     To Roadblock:
     “but then at the end you tell me not to bother to give my opinion” — considering this is what Steve wrote in #225 (“Please don’t address any more remarks to me. I find your reasoning abhorrent and disgusting.), perhaps you should bone up on your English before offering your expertise in the form of lessons. If you want the Coles’ Notes, he’s not discouraging you from sharing your opinion; he’s merely informing you that he hasn’t much use for them.

     “The merit or demerit of the opinion is irrelevant to the existence of the opinion.” — fair enough. Let’s just call it, in your parlance, a “demerit”, shall we? Besides, nothing wrong with discussing an opinion if one considers it to be of the wingnut variety, even if such an opinion constitutes the current “reality”.

     I’d be fascinated to know what passport you hold, and what nationality you consider yourself.

246. Jerry Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 7:53 am

     @Roadblock #241

     You wrote several things which beggar disbelief on my part.

     refusing to accept the reality that almost everyone in China is of the opinion that being Chinese implies a certain kind of innate breeding.

     “almost everyone”! How did you ever determine that?

     Say we take a hundred DNA samples from “Chinese” people (your definition) and added Lou Jing’s DNA. Then we compare them all in a double blind study. Would we be able to determine which one was Lou Jing’s because it was so starkly different? I certainly don’t know, and I don’t care. IMHO, she is Chinese. BTW, the term “innate breeding” leaves me feeling squeamish.

     I am merely a humble messanger informing you of the prevalence of such opinion as a matter of fact.

     This really beggars disbelief. You are claiming humility here? Wow, I must be missing something.

     You are entitled to your opinions, and also to your delusions.

     If the Old World is as you describe (I have no idea how you determine prevalence of opinions on this issue), let us hope that the Old World soon wakes up to a higher sense of humanity.

247. Roadblock Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 8:17 am

     Cheung 245,

     Steve asks me more than one question regarding my statements, but then instructs me not to give him my answers. Is that a contradiction or not? Perhaps you, sir, should bone up on your logic before offering expertise!

     Perhaps Steve did mean to ask me those questions. Perhaps he did not. But one is not a mind-reader, is one? I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, assumed that he was open to free exchange of ideas, and answered his questions nonetheless.

     I am glad you admitted the existence and the prevalence of the opinion, unlike Steve 225, who denies the existence, or Jerry 246, who rejects its prevalence.

     How is my own citizenship relevant to the discussion here?

248. Roadblock Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 8:39 am

     Jerry 246,

     Do we need to take surveys to determined whether almost everyone in China is a Mongoloid, whether they speak Chinese, whether they know that the earth is not flat, or whether they believe in a heliocentric solar system instead of a geocentric one? National identity is too important an issue to be left to those social “scientists” to measure.

     And is it really so difficult to realise that a black African is genealogically distinct from any yellow Chinese? I am confident that even a redneck child who’s never seen an Asian or African before could easily tell them apart.

     Just take a look at the long list of countries that apply the jus sanguinis principle to their nationality laws. And you would know the Old World countries that I’ve been talking about.

249. Raj Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 10:43 am

     Hi dewang (236)

     What “majority Han idea” are you talking about? The fact that Han people are the majority in China? That is a fact.

     As for the rest of what you said, I’m not sure how it is relevant to my suggestion that a common view amongst the Chinese community of what constitutes being Chinese is limited to being Han and the “official minorities”. Yeah, there are variations within the Han community, but that doesn’t mean people who don’t obsess over what sub-group potential partners were once from are therefore tolerant of all races/ethnic groups.

     Being English, let alone British, has always been a multi-ethnic affair (Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Huguenot, etc). That doesn’t mean we have always been tolerant of all ethnic groups and were willing to accept anyone as being English.

250. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

     To Brainblock #247:
     “Perhaps you, sir, should bone up on your logic before offering expertise!” — hmmm, let’s see about that, shall we…

     Once again, let’s see what Steve had written: “”Please don’t address any more remarks to me.”
     Now let’s see what our budding Einstein wrote: “but then instructs me not to give him my answers.”

     So, if one actually read what Steve wrote, he’s not saying to refrain from giving him answers to his previous questions; he’s saying he’s seen enough, and please spare him of any MORE nonsense. If you’re still clueless, he didn’t say “any remarks”; he said “any MORE remarks”.

     Considering this is the second time I’m having to point out the same thing to you, I can’t speak to your capacity for logic, but I can sure render an opinion on your ability to read, and your ability to learn. If you would like to find out what that opinion is, just ask.

     “I am glad you admitted the existence and the prevalence of the opinion” — whoa, cowboy. That “innate breeding” opinion probably exists (although you may as well have said in-breeding). But you haven’t done anything to substantiate its prevalence. And it’s still a stupid opinion, as far as I’m concerned.

     Since your point seems to be that a CHinese passport doesn’t necessarily make you Chinese, just wondered what passport you hold, and whether that confers onto you that nationality. For instance, I have a Canadian passport, and I’m Canadian. Not that difficult a question, really.

     #248:
     “National identity is too important an issue to be left to those social “scientists” to measure.” — this statement is a gem. For instance, why is it of such over-arching importance? And to whom would you rather confer the responsibility of measuring it.

     “And is it really so difficult to realise that a black African is genealogically distinct from any yellow Chinese?” — dude, are you now heading towards eugenics, Chinese style?

251. Charles Liu Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

     Buru @ 240, “I hope such spirited discussions are going on in the Chinese language forums too.”

     I believe I’ve demonstrated such debat exists in China’s blogsphere, when equal, if not more, comments against racim were found in examples that were supposedly cited to suggest overwhelming prevlance of racism in China (the 90% claim that was subsquently disproven.)

     Some people assume the best of humanity, while some people only seek out dark corners. So opinions aside, I hope you’ll seek facts of the case to make up your mind.

252. pug_ster Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

     @SK Cheung 244

     what on earth is “race-baiting”, particularly on a thread whose central theme is racism?

     None, I’m just saying that Jimmy is race baiting because he is complaining that there racism in Chinese media when he could not prove it.

253. Roadblock Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

     Mr. Cheung 250,

     I do not understand why you have to be so personal on me all the time, by calling me names, asking my background, presumptuously judging my mental faculties, and so on. Can’t you see how rude it is? And is there any logically necessary connection between the content of my message and who I am?

     I do not intend to get into any personal squabble with anybody here. And I trust that we are all rational and mature enough to judge the merits of ideas without judging the people behind those ideas.

254. Raj Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

     pug_ster (252)

     SKC wanted you to explain what race-baiting is. Can you show a definition of the term that shows not being able to “prove” an accusation of racism is race-baiting?

255. pug_ster Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 5:39 pm

     @Raj 254

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_baiting

     It is not an English word, but a slang. According to wikipedia: “Race-baiting is also be accomplished by implying that there is an underlying race-based motive in the actions of others towards the group baited, where none in fact exists.”

256. dewang Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

     Hi Jerry, #242,

     I saw your comment just now. Like I said to Steve previously, I am updating the list of metrics.

     “That said, sure, I agree with you meassuring from the Blacks perspective is more useful. Btw, I’ll update the metrics list to reflect later on.” – Comment #230.

     Why would you accuse me of finding metrics that would bend towards conclusion I want to draw?

     Fair enough about your desire to want to watch out for racism. That’s admirable.

     I also ask that you also watch out for how racists treated the Chinese which is not at all inconsistent with what you are saying.

257. dewang Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

     Hi Guys,

     This is our list of metrics thus far. I encourage everyone to read pass comments about issues with each metric. Mainly its a summary here thus far.

     I have added “0” to the top of the list and not renumber the others so to keep the numbers consistent with our comments so far.

     0. Level of racism as directly experienced by Blacks from perspective of Blacks
     1. Level of Chinese police brutality against Blacks
     2. Level of dis-proportionality in number of Blacks serving prison sentences or put on death roll
     3. Level of racial profiling
     4. Level of workplace discrimination against Blacks
     5. Level of interaction between Chinese and Blacks
     6. Level of interpersonal relationships
     7. Prevalence of “closet” racism
     8. Level of media propaganda propagating racist views
     9. Level of racism against enemy nations during time of war (this is one I am struggling – maybe I’ll just drop it)

     Hi S.K. Cheung

     “There is something to be said too though if collectively metrics, 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, etc turned up nothing, especially comparing against another country who has lots on these same metrics.”

     Would you respond differently with #0 on the list? The reason I brought in other nations is because I think its worthwhile to compare, so we can see relatively how much better or how much worse China is.

     #230:
     “the average Chinese contact with a Black person is very “minimal.” When we are talking about racism in China, it is easy to loose this big picture. I fear that many people in the “West” do not have any of this nuance.” — again, this is why I suggested it is important to not just focus on prior actions, but also current attitudes. Here’s another question: if a Chinese person harbours racist attitudes towards Blacks, having never met/seen/interacted with one in their lifetime, where do you think such attitudes came from?

     That’s fair, and I’ve added metric #0. Btw, I think metric #8 would covers some of it. I am open to your suggestion on another metric which could further measure the “current” attitude.

     “Regarding the “separatist” point” — that whole argument doesn’t sit well with me. If racism is the prejudging of an individual or individuals based solely on their race/colour of their skin, then it’s somehow less abhorrent to harbour such attitudes against an entire race if some member(s) of that race might be agitating to separate from your country? That’s like saying racism is okay under certain conditions. That totally doesn’t fly with me, either as an excuse or as an explanation.

     Hmm, I’d say we simply view this differently. This is not to justify racism. If during the slavery days of America, the Blacks got together on some territory and advocated separation from the U.S.A., I’d bet racist sentiments within the U.S. population would have gone worse.

     To #231:
     “there is no question the Blacks suffered the most under the hands of the Europeans and Americans during colonial times.” — even if that is true, how is that remotely relevant if your earlier contention is to keep the focus on Blacks in China?

     You are right.

     To #234:
     “The other police officer who is in the rural area for being a “closet” racist hasn’t done anything yet.” — and therefore hasn’t yet broken any laws. But the presence of such attitudes makes him no less racist than the other cop who’d acted out his thoughts, just less prosecutable.

     You are not advocating the “closet” racist be prosecuted, are you?

     “its rather impossible for all the “closets” to suddenly “come out” at the same time. You’d seen the other metrics getting worse and worse first to alarming levels.” — but even if every single last Black person in China suffered from racism, there would still not be enough events to register a blip, let alone achieve “alarming levels” on your metrics.

     Do you still hold this position with metric #0? Btw, feel free to add to the list of metrics.

     Also, are you serious? You would see Blacks taking to the streets, like they have done. You would see diplomats from African nations register formal complaints against the Chinese government in China and in U.N.. You would see tons of stuff.

     To #236:
     “That’d be the ultimate form of uniformity. Does that then mean the U.S. is not “diverse” anymore?” — it would to me, for no other reason that uniformity and diversity are opposites. But I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here.

     Simply because I feel some have tried to conjure this feeling that China’s “han” majority is so large in number that China is not “diverse.” This *feeling* is then used in making whatever arguments being made.

258. Raj Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

     pug_ster

     According to wikipedia

     Can you link to something a bit more reliable than an unreferenced Wikipedia article that has been marked as potentially original research? Wikipedia is generally proof of nothing, given that anyone can edit it to say what they like and there is no oversight to say what is right or wrong.

259. Charles Liu Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 7:41 pm

     Roadblock @ 253, “I do not understand why you have to be so personal”

     Some people go after the messenger, when they have nothing to say about the facts at hand.

260. admin Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

     African Boots of Beijing

     http://vimeo.com/6734087

     A documentary film by Luke Mines and Jeremy Goldkorn about Afrika United, a team of Africans playing in a football championship league in Beijing, China.

261. dewang Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 9:38 pm

     “African Boots of Beijing”(thx admin) – Youtube version, in case Vimeo is slower for some of you.
     

262. pug_ster Says:
     October 27th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

     @Raj 258,

     Can you link to something a bit more reliable than an unreferenced Wikipedia article that has been marked as potentially original research? Wikipedia is generally proof of nothing, given that anyone can edit it to say what they like and there is no oversight to say what is right or wrong.

     No offense, there’s no point of debating over a slang word.

263. dewang Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 12:15 am

     chinayouren made a comment (enlightening for me) in the following thread I thought repeating here:

     “Are Chinese racist or simply politically incorrect?”
     Written by Allen on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

     (linkto his comment there – which was highlighted.)

     Racism in China is more about politically incorrect attitudes than anything else. In fact, real racism, the one that OP calls “political racism”, cannot really exist today in the life of most Chinese, because they are simply not in significant contact with other races.

     This reminds me of the incident of the Spanish olympic basketball team and their eye-slanting picture. When I went back to Spain for the Summer holidays, most of the people didn’t really understand what it was all about. They considered it just a typical nationalistic attack from the self-righteous British press, in line with previous accusations of racism during the Alonso-Hamilton F1 feud. Although I do see that the picture was a rather stupid idea, I can’t help but understand their position.

     The most revealing aspect of that polemics was that, on my return to Shanghai, I could see that only my anglo-saxon friends were giving it some importance. Some British girls even looked seriously worried and they came to ask me earnestly: “Chinayouren, are Spanish people RACIST?” In fact, none of the chinese I know here gave any importance to the incident, which is why it was very quickly forgotten. They understood it as what it really was: a simple good-humoured joke, admittedly not very funny, but nothing to be vexed about.

     Which comes to prove these points:

     Commonly accepted PC is a very recent concept, created and constantly redefined by a bunch of rich western countries to serve their own historical/psychological issues. Unlike Human Rights, there is no valid reason why these principles should be acccepted as Universal Values by the rest of the world.

     Even worse, the western PC regime follows a very racist logic itself, ensuring in every occasion that racial differences are given the most relevant place in the discussion. Eastern peoples would be well advised to stay away from these rules and try to create their own, more reasonable ones. Always, of course, in the spirit of respect for all the peoples.

264. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 1:06 am

     To Roadblock #253:
     I think you’re confusing criticism of your arguments with criticism of you. I’ve merely challenged your arguments on each of your points in #247 and 248. If such an affront is too much for you, then I sympathize. But it is something to which you will grow accustomed on this blog.

     That said, each of us should be responsible for our comments, unless you suggest that “the television made me say it”. So yes, if I find a comment to be ridiculous, it does make me wonder about the commenter. I suppose smart people say dumb things every now and then…but the odds should diminish rapidly with each subsequent incident.

     If asking your citizenship is too much, after you made the point about the difference between citizenship and nationality, then I apologize, and withdraw the question. Wouldn’t want to add to your level of discomfort.

     To Dewang #257:
     I definitely agree with #0. To me, it trumps all the other metrics thus far.

     “The reason I brought in other nations is because I think its worthwhile to compare” — I suppose this goes to our philosophical difference about the importance and relevance of “context”. When we’re talking about racism in China, I don’t think any comparison is necessary or relevant. Whatever level of racism exists in any other country has no bearing on said level in China. If the contention was that racism is China is so much more rampant than in country x/y/z, then a comparison is necessary. But that’s not what we’ve been talking about here. And as Jerry has suggested, the urge to compare smacks of an urge to minimize, which ironically goes against all your efforts to quantify the issue. So I’m definitely confused.

     “this feeling that China’s “han” majority is so large in number that China is not “diverse.”” — on the one hand, the presence of 55 ethnic minority groups in China argues for the PRESENCE of diversity in CHina. However, when 1 ethnicity makes up something like 90% of the population (I don’t know the exact numbers, but I think I’m actually being on the low side), it’s tough to argue that the AMOUNT of said diversity is somehow robust. It’s nobody’s fault, and it is what it is. But it’s more than a “feeling”; it’s rather factual, i think. As to what role this plays in any argument is, well, open to argument.

     “If during the slavery days of America, the Blacks got together on some territory and advocated separation from the U.S.A., I’d bet racist sentiments within the U.S. population would have gone worse.” — it may well have. But it’s still racism all the same, which is my point.

     “You are not advocating the “closet” racist be prosecuted, are you?” — no. My poor word-choice. Instead of “less prosecutable”, I should have said “not prosecutable”. My point is that, charges or no charges, both cops in your example would still be racists.

     “You would see Blacks taking to the streets” — again, given that there are all of 20,000 of them in a population of 1.3B, in a country the size of China, how likely is it to see a Black March anywhere that would register a blip? I’m not sure such a small segment of the population would generate tons of anything. And yes, Metric #0 would again trump any manifestation that you could otherwise measure.

     To Charles #259:
     a messenger merely relays or repeats someone else’s opinion. Distaste for savaging messengers has no relevance when it comes to dealing with the content-creators themselves.

265. Jerry Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 2:06 am

     @S.K. Cheung #250, @Roadblock #248, #250

     As a Jew, the term, “eugenics” tends to make me queasy. IMHO, it is a very visceral word. Unfortunately, it seems to apply to #248. ::shaking my head::

     “And I trust that we are all rational and mature enough to judge the merits of ideas without judging the people behind those ideas.”

     Roadblock, your intellectual banter is a mere cover for your racism. Nietzsche discussed similar ideas in a very intellectual, academic manner, i.e., Übermensch. His intellectual banter was just a cover for his racism and his vile hatred of all things “weak” in the German gene pool. His philosophy inspired Hitler and the rest is history.

     The “merits” of eugenics are reprehensible. Rational and mature people do not espouse eugenics. I guess the inference should be pretty clear as to how I view you and your ideas.

266. Ted Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 3:22 am

     @ dewang 243: Thanks so much, I really appreciate that. The two books I’ve read by Robert Penn Warren are “Segregation” and “Who Speaks for the Negro?”. Maybe Jerry can throw out some others he’s a walking bibliography on what seems like every topic 😉

267. Jason Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 3:35 am

     Examples of race-baiting in the United States: http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/07/31/race_baiting/

268. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 4:46 am

     Okay, so I “bit”, as it were, and read Jason’s link. If those examples are consistent with “race-baiting”, and in line with the convoluted definition Pugster offered from Wiki, then:
     a) the term is pointless on this thread, since the entire thread is about race, and attributing things (or not) to race.
     b) I don’t see how Jimmy’s apparent assertion that Chinese media harbours racist attitudes is race-baiting. You can agree with his assertion, or not. But it seems race-baiting is the introduction of a racial motive by subterfuge, like suggesting that a black candidate in Tennessee is not trustworthy because he might steal white women, simply by virtue of a photo at the Playboy mansion; Jimmy’s assertion seems pretty much out in the open. I’m not sure how much more clearly he could’ve expressed his opinion. And if that’s subterfuge, I would love to be there when Jimmy speaks his mind.

     To Roadblock:
     (thanks, Jerry #265, for reminding me.) So, what you said in #248 which both Jerry and I have highlighted…are you doing eugenics Chinese style, or have we misinterpreted you? Wouldn’t want that now, would we.

269. pug_ster Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 6:22 am

     @Skc 268

     Race baiting is a very loose term of someone using race or racism in a cheap manner.

     In Jimmy’s comment @190

     http://news.xinhuanet.com/overseas/2009-09/08/content_12014017.htm

     First page is the main story on Lou Jing, the second page give a background on African immigration into China…and what do you guys see? Bunch of naked tribal African woman running around. Given that this is not the first time I see the same picture from Xinhua on Africa related stories, then I ask, how could the Chinese not see blacks as nobel savages? I get offended when Western media keep showing pictures of cops in any stories about China, and I bet all blacks will get offended if the Chinese media keep showing pictures of primitive tribes with all stories about Africa.

     In Jimmy’s comment in 202

     It is racist to assume the proper culture in Africa is composed of dance around the fire with big masks like Shaka Zulu. You can try that youself, like find a black guy on the street and ask “aren’t blacks suppose to dance around fire with big masks and half naked?” Please do post the result here.

     Personally I don’t know why would he make such an outlandish statements like those to assume Chinese would think this lowly of Africans. He has no statements to back up his claim so that’s why I call this race-baiting.

270. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 6:38 am

     To Pugster:
     “someone trying bring up the issue of race that ultimately make the person itself look bad” — well, I don’t know exactly how loose this term is supposed to be, but what you said here doesn’t jibe with the Wiki definition you offered up, and isn’t consistent with the examples in Jason’s link.

     It seems, in Jimmy’s 2 comments that you highlighted, that he’s explained to you the basis of those assumptions that you find outlandish. To disagree with them is your prerogative. But I’m not sure how using a “loose” term whose definition seems to be a moving target even in your own mind serves to highlight your disapproval.

271. Roadblock Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 7:34 am

     Jerry 265,

     I have said nothing whatsoever about eugenics! You and Cheung are twisting my words, and leaping off the topic. My claim was simply that black Africans and Chinese are of two distinct races. I believe I’ve made my point perfectly clear. It is your problem if you have to misinterpret my claim as a call for eugenics.

272. Steve Says:
     October 28th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

     @ admin & DeWang~ Thanks for the links on the Afrika United football club. It was a nice change of pace from the usual things we see or read about. For an amateur documentary, I thought it was pretty well made.

273. Rhan Says:
     October 29th, 2009 at 12:09 am

     SKC#220
     1. I always believe Chinese had prejudice toward other race, however the prejudice is not in superiority sense. Not long ago, even among the difference clans like Hakka, Cantonese, Teochew and Hokkian had this bigotry feel against each other. I think the attitude remain until today but are direct toward other race because the clan variation is now become obscure after many generation of living together. Is this racism? Perhaps.
     2. a) Yes, this happen in Malaysia but I see it as a class issue, race being use as disguise.
     3. Racism toward Black not only happens in China, the stereotype is common. Here in Malaysia, we have all kind of unique and derogatory expression towards foreigners including Black. Many deem Black make their living through con and cheat.
     4. I agree prejudice is not a positive attitude, but in my opinion, may not be to the extent of racism
     5. Some Asian and Muslim see double standard while some of you never fail to mention two wrongs don’t make a right. I think conflict start over and over again when both sides insist to maintain their respective stance.
     6. I understand the concept of calling a spade a spade. However, I am not too sure if history has or has no role in shaping people values, for an example, Jew/German/Japanese.

     Ted #238
     “…when a group of what looked like migrant workers walked past us and called my friend’s Chinese girlfriend a slut for dating a foreigner”
     Did you ever wonder why they call your friend’s CHINESE girlfriend a slut and not the FOREIGNER friend of yours a stud, pimp or whatever? I ask because I am curious, is inferiority a kind of racism too?

274. dewang Says:
     October 29th, 2009 at 5:24 am

     Hi S.K. Cheung, #264,

     “I definitely agree with #0. To me, it trumps all the other metrics thus far.”

     Seriously, I’ve been looking for this kind of data. It’s been pretty hard thus far. Maybe you can pitch in and help out as well.

     Admin has found some commentary from African football players in China. I read some materials pertaining to African students complaining about biased treatment. That’s all so far on my end.

     Regarding “context” – yeah, I can accept this as a philosophical difference. Let’s suppose there is only one country on this planet, then you are obviously right. So I am willing to venture towards that direction.

     But if you look at the second #1 priority, this comparison totally makes sense. Why not cater to both priorities for both camps of this debate?

     Regarding diversity, I explained to Raj this idea that “hans” while 90+% of the population may in fact be very well bred, meaning it has a tremendous mix of blood from all the other ethnic groups. Doesn’t that then speak of tolerance and diversity?

     “But it’s still racism all the same, which is my point.” I’d say you are correct also. Only point I was trying to make is separatism makes racism on both sides much worse. Now when you throw in outside promotion of this separatism, that further compounds the racism issue.

     ““You would see Blacks taking to the streets” — again, given that there are all of 20,000 of them in a population of 1.3B, in a country the size of China, how likely is it to see a Black March anywhere that would register a blip? I’m not sure such a small segment of the population would generate tons of anything. And yes, Metric #0 would again trump any manifestation that you could otherwise measure.”

     I am not sure if you are suggesting Blacks do not take to the streets with this incredible “odds.”

     Sure, it seems metric #0 is our friend.

275. dewang Says:
     October 29th, 2009 at 5:32 am

     Hi Raj, #249,

     In my comment #236, I wasn’t trying to relate to anything in particular – just this simple idea of a “han” majority. So I was curious what your take is on the following – original comments from #236:

     “I have always wondered, is the existence of many minorities in large numbers a fact of diversity? Let’s assume every single race in the U.S. marry each other until there is a very uniformed mixed breed. First, I’d say, bravo! That’d be the ultimate form of uniformity. Does that then mean the U.S. is not “diverse” anymore?

     Have you examined the blood of all the “Han?” One can make an argument that because there are fewer people in each distinct minority, it speaks volumes about the tolerance for one another because they are all marrying each other.”

276. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 29th, 2009 at 6:36 am

     To Rhan #273:
     “I always believe Chinese had prejudice toward other race, however the prejudice is not in superiority sense.” — agreed.

     “I think conflict start over and over again when both sides insist to maintain their respective stance.” — agreed. I suppose that’s one of the purposes of this blog. Tough slogging indeed.

     “I am not too sure if history has or has no role in shaping people values, for an example, Jew/German/Japanese.” — I would agree, insofar as such an attitude would be almost understandable in the midst of war. But it would seem a bit much for a Chinese person to espouse racism towards Japanese in 2009, for instance, on the basis of what happened in the 1930’s and 1940’s. It would seem equally obtuse for a Jew to have racist attitudes towards all Germans because of the Nazis. And if we turn our focus back to this thread, what has Black people ever done to Chinese?

     To Dewang #274:
     “It’s been pretty hard thus far.” — I’ll bet. And the prospects of it getting any easier are also not good. Considering blacks represent less than 0.002 percent of the population, what are the chances that they would be the subjects of rigorous scientific polling. I would guess slim to none.

     “Why not cater to both priorities for both camps of this debate?” — since the likelihood of us resolving philosophical differences is also slim to none, I would agree that covering all bases is fair. However, it is nearly guaranteed that the discussion will be at cross purposes – it’s just like global warming, or IP piracy. One side will focus on “per capita”, while the other stresses the “totals”, because that’s what suits them. Obviously that’s just an example; I’m not saying you’re recommending we discuss racism on a per capita basis.

     “meaning it has a tremendous mix of blood from all the other ethnic groups” — I don’t think the litmus test for ethnicity is “pure-bloodedness”. I’m not even sure what a pure-blooded Han or Tibetan would be anyhow. But as you’ve even said earlier, true and complete intermixing of blood lines equals absence of diversity. If you argue that CHinese blood is well-admixed, then by definition you have little diversity. If you argue that China is diverse on the basis of individual self-identification of ethnicity, then it is certainly true, as I’ve stipulated, but isn’t present in robust amounts, for reasons I’ve also already iterated.

     “Only point I was trying to make is separatism makes racism on both sides much worse.” — I agree with your assessment of the end result. I do wonder whether it is borne of separatism alone, or of the desire of one side to quash it.

     “I am not sure if you are suggesting Blacks do not take to the streets with this incredible “odds.” — what I was trying to say is that even if all 20000 Blacks had suffered workplace discrimination, been pulled over on the street based on race alone, etc, that would still only be 20000 complainants out of 1.3B. It would mean 100% prevalence of “institutionalized” racism against Blacks in China, but it would still register barely a blip.

     To Roadblock #271:
     “My claim was simply that black Africans and Chinese are of two distinct races.” — seriously LOL. If that was your point, then I wonder why you didn’t simply say so with such precision earlier. That said, you’re being far too modest. You needn’t merely claim that Black Africans and Chinese are distinct; you can probably shout it out as point of fact.

277. Ted Says:
     October 29th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

     @Rhan 273: My assumptions for their reasons are stated in my comment, sorry, I’m not understanding your comment, could you elaborate?

278. Rhan Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 12:19 am

     Hi Ted,
     I could be wrong but my experience tells me that the Chinese prejudice should be categories as sort of cultural belief that are without the superiority feel. Unlike the “western” types that is superiority in nature. Hence you rarely see the Chinese impose our values system on others and alleviate the possibility of conflict between race, meaning to say I have doubt toward your statement “but this kind of racism will eventually turn into something worse.”

279. Steve Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 2:54 am

     Here are a few other viewpoints on racism in China that may help move the discussion along:

     This article is called Race & Racism in China. Just four paragraphs, it offers a summary of the author’s views about racism over the centuries.

     This website consists of various opinions covering today’s racism with some individual examples, from the China History Forum.

     This article is called Notes on Han Chinese Racism. It is quite long, starting with an example in Hong Kong and then expanding into an in depth analysis of the causes behind such racism.

     Hopefully these differing opinions can give everyone food for thought and possibly add to the discussion. I was impressed with the civililty between participants on the China History Forum.

280. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 7:56 am

     To Rhan:
     Moving beyond just the Black population here, but my feeling has likewise been that “Chinese racism” did not necessarily carry racial-superiority undertones. However, even in the absence of a concept of superiority, prejudice and discrimination based on race would still generate ample signals on metrics such as those suggested by Dewang in this thread.

     On the other hand, Steve’s “Race and Racism in China” article and many comments in THe CHina History Forum would seem to suggest that the concept of Chinese racial superiority is in fact alive and well.

281. Rhan Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am

     SKC

     “Every culture has its ethnic origin……the gap between the Chinese and the barbarians is as wide as that between men and beasts” Zhang Binglin in his essay “Urgent Words(1903) from Sun Yat-sen by Marie-Claire Bergère, Janet Lloyd. And thus is revealed the primeval motivations that fuelled the founding father’s indefatigable quest. The fabled noble revolutionary who was, in reality, an opportunist marooned in a self made harbour of racial superiority and a hatred for fellow humans. For chingkie lovvas and sundry dissolutes focus on Part 2 of the book. It contains the hallmarks of Chinese opportunism and hypocrisy. A case of shifting sands in shifting times. Are you now blind to a chronically diseased soul infected by a weltanschung of extreme racism and turgid xenophobia?

     The above is comment toward Chinese by my fellow countryman, I paste only part of it as I need to observe the rule here. If we take out the historical and culture context, then I agree that Chinese is actually an animal with supremacist ideology. Hence my question in #218 “(e) is the Chinese cliche of civilise versus barbarian a naïve tianxia (天下) notion of us and them, or an authenticate indication of racialism?” is trying to tell that some Chinese are actually naïve, and they may have very shallow understanding of their own history and culture, and our world as well.

     1) I am in the opinion that Chinese racism is lean towards prejudice, and this happen to every human being.
     2) Steve link that suggest that concept of Chinese racial superiority is in fact alive and well shall take more time and fact to prove.
     3) Is Chinese a supremacist lots base on Zhang Binglin essay? I think the mainland and Taiwan Chinese here should come out with better response.

282. Ted Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

     @Rhan: “Hence you rarely see the Chinese impose our values system on others and alleviate the possibility of conflict between race, meaning to say I have doubt toward your statement “but this kind of racism will eventually turn into something worse.”

     How could a lack of understanding lead to anything but conflict? I certainly can’t think of an example when ignorance led to improved understanding between cultures/races.

283. Jerry Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

     @Ted #282, @ Rhan #281

     Ted, you wrote in #282:

     How could a lack of understanding lead to anything but conflict? I certainly can’t think of an example when ignorance led to improved understanding between cultures/races.

     I agree, Ted; ignorance and lack of understanding/empathy are breeding grounds for more racism, hatred and distrust. At best, ignorance is only temporary bliss. Until it bites you in the tuchus!

     Rhan, you wrote in #281, “1) I am in the opinion that Chinese racism is lean towards prejudice, and this happen to every human being.”

     Rhan, do you seriously think that the vituperative, hateful, racist, sexist writings which occurred during the Lou Jing incident are just garden-variety prejudice? I don’t think so. Chinese racism, hatred and sexism are hardly as benign as you tend to creatively paint them. If prejudice happens to everybody, why did some people write such hateful things about Lou Jing and why did some support Lou Jing?

     I think you are dead wrong about downplaying Chinese racism, sexism, and hatred. They are just as dangerous as racism, sexism and hatred anywhere else in the world. Do you seriously think that Chinese have some kind of superior control over their emotional, irrational and subconscious areas of their psyches? Do you seriously think that Chinese have some kind of superior control over the pathologies and toxicities in their psyches? Not likely! In fact, I would say that it is improbable.

284. Raj Says:
     October 30th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

     Hi dewang (275)

     I kind of covered that in my comment at 249. I haven’t passed comment on whether having lots or few ethnic minorities means a society is tolerant – it doesn’t. My point was that the list of “official minorities” may serve to narrow who can be Chinese – if you don’t fit inside the box, you’re not “Chinese”. Many Chinese people see being Chinese as being about race, not nationality, where you live, etc.

     Being “English”, even before the 20th century, was a multi-ethnic affair – yet would you argue English society was tolerant of ethnic groups because of that? I don’t think so, just as I would say that “inter-Han marriage” is a sign of tolerance of other ethnic groups. If it shows tolerance it’s only of other Hans, maybe because whatever differences there used to be are now regarded as irrelevant.

285. S.K. Cheung Says:
     October 31st, 2009 at 4:41 am

     To Rhan #281:
     “Chinese racism is lean towards prejudice, and this happen to every human being.” — to me, as I’ve stated, prejudice based on race is racism, so those 2 things are part and parcel of the same thing. However, I definitely disagree that “this happen(s) to every human being”. I don’t think prejudice is an innate human characteristic; rather, I think it’s a trait that is learned, and not everyone is doomed to learn it. I don’t think toddlers run around and decide they’re not going to play with another toddler of a different race/skin colour, of their own accord. Those who demonstrate such traits have their parents to thank.

     To Raj:
     I don’t think inter-racial marriage provides any insight into society’s racial tolerance, or lack thereof. The participants of that marriage obviously possess inter-racial tolerance, as least towards each other’s race. But it would be a stretch to even assume that their respective families share their inter-racial enlightenment, much less society at large.

286. tptianguo Says:
     October 31st, 2009 at 9:40 pm

     Oh come on, you guys are just here to defend your ethnic ego. Change is better than denial.

     If you’re really Chinese you guys know full well there is a lot of ignorance, and people often say things that would be totally politically incorrect in other countries. You know that “Han” is a unified culture now regardless of what tribal ancestry we had in the past, and minorities are pushed to the fringe or being assimilated fast. Do you know which tribe you were assimilated from during the Han dynasty? If you had Manchu heritage today, would you flaunt it publicly? I wouldn’t, not yet. When China is 10% black, 20% latino with immigrants flooding the borders and being “proud” of their heritage instead of assimilating in Han culture, and when interracial marriages are commonplace then we’ll compare with other people. Not that I support the idea, though.

     There is racism in China, in the West, and everywhere else. The difference is that even while prejudice happens, other countries combat it on some larger level whereas China keeps a mute silence, as if only not to appear racist on the outside. It would be far better to stand up and say, “Yes, there is racism, we’re working on it” than the steadfast denial of something that is [going] to become very obvious if nothing is done. Admitting a problem isn’t going to lose us face, no one’s going to laugh, in fact it would garner more positive attention.

     As for Lou Jing, there is much more support FOR her than racist comments against her. ChinaSmack has picked the inflammatory comments for sensationalist value, but I believe that’s the whole purpose behind Chinasmack, so it’s nothing to get upset about. China has had little face contact with foreigners, and it’s no surprise there’s a lot of “they took our women!!” posts. Not to mention the current storm of patriotic “opinion” coming out of Chinese web portals, all breeding grounds for the angry kids these days. I’d say this pubescent phase should pass in a decade or two.

287. Raj Says:
     November 1st, 2009 at 12:22 am

     tptianguo

     Admitting a problem isn’t going to lose us face, no one’s going to laugh, in fact it would garner more positive attention.

     That is true. I think some of the negative attention China receives is due to what are quite obvious ridiculous denials. It’s like where a child suffers a nasty attack from other students at their school, but the school responds to the incident by saying “we don’t have a bullying problem”.

     Some people need to stop their silly obsession with face and the feeling that it’s too demeaning to air dirty laundry in front of foreigners. We live in an ever shrinking world, so it’s much healthier to be honest about things.

288. Rhan Says:
     November 2nd, 2009 at 1:22 am

     Hi SKC #285,
     I think we both have stated our stand clearly on racism (prejudice). My “every” is perhaps an over statement, I shall withdraw it. However, even if prejudice is not an innate human characteristic, I still think that “everyone” could not break away from influence by others in a modern society hence toddle cannot forever be toddle. Why man loves a prettier or sexier woman and not the ugly and chubby one?

     Ted #282,
     “how could a lack of understanding lead to anything but conflict? I certainly can’t think of an example when ignorance led to improved understanding between cultures/races.”
     My view is that ignorance never leads to improve understanding between culture/race and neither does it lead to conflict. Is first and second world wars has anything to do with lack of understanding or can you cite me one example that racial conflict is due to lack of understanding?

     Jerry #283,
     “If prejudice happens to everybody, why did some people write such hateful things about Lou Jing and why did some support Lou Jing?”
     Hope my reply to SKC does help answer part of your question. Can you be very sure that the one who supports Lou Jing is not racism and anyone that keeping silence is too not racism? From my experience in blog comment, I can never judge anyone character most of the time if he wrote anonymously. The prejudice towards Black is quite common all over the world and this kind of prejudice happen to Chinese 30 years ago before China adopts the open door policy. My personal opinion is that the Chinese prejudice toward black is a common one that lack hatred and superiority sense, but of course when the fingers are pointing toward the keyboard on a site that have the so-called total freedom of speech, all become psycho a bit.

     “I think you are dead wrong about downplaying Chinese racism, sexism, and hatred.”
     Perhaps I am. At this point of time, I see Chinese racism happen in Singapore and Taiwan towards the indigenous, this has something to do with political and economy prowess. In most other country, Chinese is the one that suffers discrimination. As for Mainland Chinese, I can’t be sure yet.

     “Do you seriously think that Chinese have some kind of superior control over the pathologies and toxicities in their psyches?”
     Honestly I don’t know. I believe culture, belief systems and philosophy may have a role here. There must be a reason why slavery never becomes very common in China while
     Concubine (妾侍) is so customary.

     tptiango#286,
     “There is racism in China, in the West, and everywhere else. The difference is that even while prejudice happens, other countries combat it on some larger level whereas China keeps a mute silence, as if only not to appear racist on the outside.”
     Can you tell us how other country combat racism? Silence is sometimes construed as admit, to refute doesn’t mean no combat.

     “Admitting a problem isn’t going to lose us face, no one’s going to laugh, in fact it would garner more positive attention.”
     Generally this is the best thing to do, but I don’t think this problem is as straightforward as you wish it to be, and lose or gain face may not be the core issue. I paste you an excerpt (not written by me) on how some nation state validate their RACISM in the name of HUMAN NATURE. “Ketuanan” herein mean The Master Race, please read :

     I framed it within the Ketuanan Melayu paradigm because that is a living reality within the very Constitution you demand its restoration of. It is not a contradiction for isn’t the US practicing the unspoken Ketuanan Anglo-Saxon, much in the same way China proselytizes Ketuanan Han (ask the Tibetans and the Uighurs) or for that matter Ketuanan Hindi in India or Ketuanan Thai in Thailand or Ketuanan Jawa in Indonesia or even the USSR with its Ketuanan Slav during the Communist era. All countries practice some form of “ketuanan” couched in different modalities; we are unabashed in admitting it, maybe, others are unabashed at unleashing it. It is not racist, it is in human nature, brought into focus by the nation state paradigm. It is as ancient as Ur of the Chaldeans. Mesopotamia of the Sumerians, the Hittites, the Phonecians, the Persians. Even the plains Indians distinguish themselves as the Sioux nation, the Apache, the Cheyenne. It signals selfhood, affirms ownership, fosters belonging; ingrains kinship; confers identity; entrenches uniqueness.
     5% of Americans own 85% of wealth. The US of A has the highest Gini coefficient amongst OECD countries (http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/07/unequal-america.html). Poverty amongst blacks is 2 times the national average despite years of affirmative action.( and almost 2.5x than whites) Hispanics are almost 2 x above the natural average (and 2x above whites) : on poverty link here: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.xls. I am not envious of the US, why should I, I studied there for a while and I saw the sneer of grinding poverty; the smirk of pervasive hopelessness; the chastened realization that the American dream is really a fata morgana.

289. Ted Says:
     November 2nd, 2009 at 4:40 am

     @Rhan #288:

     “Is first and second world wars has anything to do with lack of understanding or can you cite me one example that racial conflict is due to lack of understanding?”

     The recent Xinjang riots come to mind.

290. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 2nd, 2009 at 5:07 am

     To Rhan #288:
     “I still think that “everyone” could not break away from influence by others in a modern society hence toddle cannot forever be toddle.”
     —- no, everyone must grow up some time. But as you get older, you can certainly choose the people to whom you ascribe such influence. You can choose to be influenced by racists; or you can choose to be influenced by people who are somewhat more enlightened. Bottom line is that it’s a choice, over which you exert control. It’s not innate, nor is it stamped in your DNA.

     “Why man loves a prettier or sexier woman and not the ugly and chubby one?” — that’s a good point. Prejudice comes in many forms. In this thread, we’re obviously talking about prejudice based on race. But certainly, there can be prejudice based on physical appearance, class, disability, weight…all manner of things, I suspect. And you know what, none of those other forms of prejudice are innate either.

291. smith Says:
     November 3rd, 2009 at 10:19 am

     Most of Chinese see black as animal, or sub-human.

     Just ask around you to people you know if they imagine that one day they can have a black BoyFriend/GirlFriend… the reaction will nearly all time be: “come one… no way!!”
     it will be for them a big surprise that you can even think about something like that.

     Black commonly hear on the street insult in Chinese based on their skin color… “hopefully” many foreigners do not understand Chinese…

292. smith Says:
     November 3rd, 2009 at 10:20 am

     Most of Chinese see black as animal, or sub-human.

     Just ask around you to Chinese people you know if they imagine that one day they can have a black BoyFriend/GirlFriend… the reaction will nearly all time be: “come one… no way!!”
     it will be for them a big surprise that you can even think about something like that.

     Black commonly hear on the street insult in Chinese based on their skin color… “hopefully” many foreigners do not understand Chinese…

293. DD Says:
     November 3rd, 2009 at 7:32 pm

     If i were Chinese girl i would certainly date some black guys. Go! Chinese girls! If you want interracial love just do it! Chinese males are nothing but jealous of Black males….Fight for your rights!

294. Charles Liu Says:
     November 4th, 2009 at 1:58 am

     Smith @ 292, “Most of Chinese see black as animal, or sub-human.”

     Could you cite some evidence to show where your “most” came from, and how many of the 1.3 billion constitute the “most”? Just wondering what your source is.

295. Rhan Says:
     November 5th, 2009 at 12:35 am

     Ted#289,
     If the Xinjiang riots merely caused by a lack of understanding and ignorant, then I think this is good news to CCP.

     Btw, can I say the Chinese ignorant and lack of understanding towards others incite so many racial conflict like 1842 Treaty of Nanjing, 1858 Treaty of Tianjin, 1895 Treaty of Shinomonoseki, 1915 Twenty One Demand and that minor accident in 1937?

     SKC
     “And you know what, none of those other forms of prejudice are innate either.”
     I hope so, but I think this is highly debatable.

296. Ted Says:
     November 5th, 2009 at 3:05 am

     @Rhan #295:

     Hi Rhan, I think that wanton ignorance on both sides led to several of the conflicts you mentioned. Incitement went both ways and neither side really wanted to understand the other.

297. Wukailong Says:
     November 5th, 2009 at 3:14 am

     @Rhan: “Btw, can I say the Chinese ignorant and lack of understanding towards others incite so many racial conflict like 1842 Treaty of Nanjing, 1858 Treaty of Tianjin, 1895 Treaty of Shinomonoseki, 1915 Twenty One Demand and that minor accident in 1937?”

     I think you’re saying that these conflicts were justified, right? Are there any similar justifications for the Xinjiang riots? And before someone asks me if 911 was justified, I’m just saying that I’m asking a question. I believe the perpetrators felt justified…

298. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 5th, 2009 at 3:37 am

     To Rhan #295:
     ““And you know what, none of those other forms of prejudice are innate either.”
     I hope so, but I think this is highly debatable.”
     — if you think some people are born to discriminate based on race, height, weight, social class, skin colour, etc etc, then clearly we think differently.

299. Ted Says:
     November 5th, 2009 at 3:47 am

     For those crying foul about western media coverage toward China regarding Racism, I thought the following quote from “Who Speaks for the Negro” was apropos:

     “Let’s talk about how people respond to feelings of persecution. I would say that millions of white Southerners feel that they and the South have been persecuted. Some will carry it back to before the Civil War, or back to what was done in the Reconstruction, et cetera. Others will bring it right down to today, when they swear that magazine X, for example, is always writing about the faults of the South, or that the press of the nation has tried to say that racial discrimination is a Southern and not a Northern problem. This feeling of regional persecution makes a man feel defensive and feel more Southern than he may really feel on other terms alone.”

     I was floored by the similarities I see in observations from this book and the comments, observations, and reactions I see on this site.

300. Cissy Says:
     November 5th, 2009 at 9:08 pm

     I bumped into this video the other day. Just FYI, she’s co-hosting a show now with Shanghai TV.

     http://www.tudou.com/v/_go6MmTlFko

301. Hker Says:
     November 6th, 2009 at 2:53 am

     Thanks Cissy…hilarious rendition of Xu Zhimo ‘s ‘Saying Goodbye to Cambridge Again’.

     Xu Zhimo 徐志摩January 15, 1897—November 19, 1931) was an early 20th century Chinese poet. He is romanticized as pursuing love, freedom, and beauty all his life… promoted the form of modern Chinese poetry, and therefore made tremendous contributions to modern Chinese literature.

     To commemorate Xu Zhimo, in July, 2008, a white marble stone has been installed at the back of King’s College, University of Cambridge, on which is inscribed a verse from Xu’s best-known poem, ‘Saying Goodbye to Cambridge Again’.

302. scl Says:
     November 6th, 2009 at 4:19 am

     Rhan says:

     “Btw, can I say the Chinese ignorant and lack of understanding towards others incite so many racial conflict like 1842 Treaty of Nanjing, 1858 Treaty of Tianjin, 1895 Treaty of Shinomonoseki, 1915 Twenty One Demand and that minor accident in 1937?”

     Rhan, the treaties of 1842 and 1858 were the consequences of the First and Second Opium War, respectively. China refused to open her market for opium trade, like any other country would have done. What exactly was the Chinese ignorant about? They knew very well the perils of opium trade! Similarly, the treaties with Japan in 1895 and 1915 (not signed) had nothing to do with racism, or misunderstanding, and everything to do with Japan’s fantasy of occupying China.

     Today, China and the West have misunderstandings in many issues, and the Chinese are proud of themselves more than any other time in the past 150 years. Have you heard any unequal treaties signed by the Chinese recently?

     The African-Chinese girl volunteered to make herself a public figure. And she was subject to some scrutiny. What’s the big deal? Even Sean Hannity is subject to constant “hate” mails! There are of cause instances of Chinese racism, like in any other country in the world. But this incidence is not a good example of Chinese racism. The whole thing was blown way out of proportion by some western media.

303. Cissy Says:
     November 6th, 2009 at 5:01 am

     http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/Q2L79OeflhA/

     In this one, she got more camera exposure.

304. Cissy Says:
     November 6th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

     Somehow, I got this feeling that, people don’t really care about her, they just want to use her to attack chinese and to prove chinese are racist. Just like they don’t really care about Tibet, only want to use Tibet to attack China.

305. Rhan Says:
     November 6th, 2009 at 11:55 pm

     SKC
     “I hope so, highly debatable” mean to say I am not absolute convinced, there is no imply at all that I believe in born to discriminate, I am not here to win every argument.

     “think differently” – of course we think differently. Jed Yoong that Steve bring up the other day was interrogated by the Malaysia police on something she wrote on her blog and I think she would stop writing for a while (could be a rumour). My point is we were groomed in a very difference environment and sometimes we hope we could see things and making comment your way but we can’t. Unlike you, our mind is bounded by the reality we face. (To be specific, my second paragraph has nothing to do with racism).

306. pug_ster Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 12:50 am

     Cissy,

     I agree. I think this kind of ‘controversy’ of racism charges toward is clearly overblown. Many Chinese blog sites just want to hear the few who make those racist calls at her while the large majority didn’t think her race as a major issue. Lou Jing clearly gained career-wise because she appeared in the singing show. A mixed race Lou Jing appearing in TV is a good sign as Chinese media are exposed to more multirace peoples.

307. Jerry Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 2:07 am

     @Cissy #304, @pug_ster #306

     Cissy, you wrote:

     Somehow, I got this feeling that, people don’t really care about her, they just want to use her to attack chinese and to prove chinese are racist. Just like they don’t really care about Tibet, only want to use Tibet to attack China.

     Well, I could write similar generalized “blanket statements” about Chinese who attack the US on the slavery of blacks/African-Americans and the treatment of Native American Indians. I could say that the Chinese don’t really care about the African-Americans and Native Americans. They just want to attack the US and call it racist.

     Now we are both locked in unyielding intransigence. And nowhere to go. This is ok sometimes. Sometimes it is not.

     I think the truth is that some people in the US and China will use any topic to criticize respectively China and the US. They care little about the people involved, whether Tibetans, Lou Jing, African-Americans or Native Americans. They just want to brand the other as evil.

     I think that some Americans sincerely care about the treatment of Lou Jing and Tibetans. We are not trying to prove racism. We just want to note the racist tendencies which were exhibited in some of the comments on Lou Jing. I believe that some Chinese honestly care about African-Americans or Native Americans. And are disgusted by racism, sexism and hatred.

     Just my point of view, Cissy.

     ####

     pug_ster, you wrote, “I think this kind of ‘controversy’ of racism charges toward is clearly overblown.”

     I disagree. The term, “clearly overblown”, is hyperbolic and overly dramatic. I think that term is an emotionally-charged word bomb.

     “Many Chinese blog sites just want to hear the few who make those racist calls at her while the large majority didn’t think her race as a major issue.”

     Again, I find that this is rather hyperbolic and overly broad. Who really knows how many or how few? (I know that our resident “search scientist”, Charlie, thinks he has proven this conclusively, if only in his mind! 😀 ) I have no idea how many supported Lou Jing, how many vilified her and how many people just don’t care.

     Furthermore, I think Fauna is doing a wonderful job at ChinaSmack in helping to expose the Lou Jing incident and other happenings in China. In addition, women supporting women: It is a wonderful thing to see.

     “Lou Jing clearly gained career-wise because she appeared in the singing show. A mixed race Lou Jing appearing in TV is a good sign as Chinese media are exposed to more multirace peoples.”

     On your last point, I heartily agree. I also think it was good because we were able to read demonstrations of racism, sexism and hatred exhibited by some Chinese people. Those issues were brought to the forefront. I also think it is good to expose Chinese people, not just the media, to multi-racial people like Lou Jing. And to people of all races.

308. pug_ster Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 6:33 am

     Jerry,

     I think there’s clearly a difference between of how Westerners and Chinese think of racism. It is the difference between how Chinese and Westerners way they are brought up, difference in culture, and how they would treat each other are how they perceive racism, not to see who’s more racist than another and I can give you some examples.

     Some Westerner comes to a typical low priced Chinese restaurant. He sits down and was given a menu with English words in it and assumes the waiters speaks half decent English and was disappointed when they do not. He notices that the forks and knives are kind of greasy and dirty and complains. Then he monopolizes the waiters time asking stuff in the menu and when the food arrives, it is not to the Westerner’s liking and poorly tips them. Meanwhile other Chinese customers in this low priced restaurant washes the dirty knives and forks (using tea), orders quickly and doesn’t complain about the food and poorly tips them. Meanwhile, the Chinese waiters talk amongst each other complaining that Westerners are picky snobs. Are these waiters racists?

     A Chinese landlord brought an investment property of an old 1 family house and rents to a Western Family for $1,400 a month, which is average in this market. There were numerous problems because of the age of the house and the Western Family wasn’t being flexible of when he can come in for repair, he also expects the landlord to refund some rent money if they are inconvenienced in any way. Things got ugly between the landlord and Western tenant when the tenant would withhold rent for repairs if they are not done. They went to court and eventually the tenant was kicked out but the landlord lost money from lost rent and attorney fees. They know that that a Chinese would not rent the house for $1,400 a month rather give Chinese discounts to $1,200 rent instead. Whenever something is broken, he would work out with a deal with the landlord to get it fixed, and does not withhold money whenever the repair is not done to their satisfaction. The Westerners complain that it is racist for them to prefer Chinese at lower rent. The Landlord was earning more from the Chinese tenant and have less headaches compared to the Western Tenant. Is the Landlord a racist.

309. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 9:05 am

     To Pugster:
     “Some Westerner comes to a typical low priced Chinese restaurant…etc” — that’s an interesting scenario. Cuz when I go to a Chinese restaurant with friends who one would not expect to be able to speak Chinese (ie white guys), but I speak Chinese to the waiter, they still speak English back to me. Go figure. Maybe it’s to be polite to the non-Chinese speaking folk at the table. Who knows.

     “Are these waiters racists?” — they would be if they said “all Westerners” are picky snobs. But they’d be fine to say that this particular “westerner” in question is a picky snob, since they’ve seen it, and aren’t prejudging him.

     “Is the Landlord a racist.” — no, he’s just making a business decision. However, it would be racist to think that “all westerners” are bad tenants, and probably just as foolish to think that “all CHinese” are good tenants. In my experience, “some” Chinese are as much complainers as “some” “westerners”.

     “It is the difference between how Chinese and Westerners way they are brought up, difference in culture” — maybe you should start calling it “racism with Chinese characteristics”.

310. Raj Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

     Cissy (304)

     Somehow, I got this feeling that, people don’t really care about her, they just want to use her to attack chinese and to prove chinese are racist. Just like they don’t really care about Tibet, only want to use Tibet to attack China.

     Come on, Cissy. Some people ALWAYS make criticisms just to attack others, whether it’s countries, political parties, individuals, religions, etc. China is no different. As Jerry says, some Chinese people will make criticisms of the USA just to make it look bad – they don’t care about the subject in question.

     Besides, you’re not saying that no foreigners care about Lou Jing and that there isn’t racism in China, are you? I think you agree on both counts that there are foreigners who care and there is racism in China. So focus on that so we can have a positive discussion.

     SKC (309)

     maybe you should start calling it “racism with Chinese characteristics”

     😀

311. FOARP Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

     Just read an interesting piece by Atlantic Monthly blogger Ta-Nehisi Coates on what exactly constitutes bigotry in the context of the gay rights campaign in the United States including an interesting quote from Brian Chase:

     ” My great-grandmother was a wonderful woman. Her home was one of the warmest, most comforting places I have ever been, and many of my best memories as a child revolve around her kitchen.

     My great-grandmother was also a bigot. As a child, she patiently explained to me that the Ku Klux Klan was a force for good (they built schools!). She thought that Brown v. Board of Education was one of the worst events in U.S. history, equaled only by the end of mandatory school prayer. In response to a horrific string of murders of black children in Atlanta, she commented that such a thing shouldn’t happen “even to children like that.”

     My great-grandmother was a product of her time. The odds of a working-class Southern woman born over a century ago being anything other than a bigot were slim to none, but even now it feels kind of gross and traitorous for me to acknowledge her bigotry. She clearly met any reasonable standard for the word ‘bigot’, yet applying the word to her feels disgusting.”

     You can read the rest here: http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/11/you_sir_have_offended_my_honor_1.php

     It seems to me that both the insistence that the people who label blacks ‘dirty’, ‘violent’ etc. and mixed-race children ‘disgusting’ are only doing so out of ignorance and is therefore not bigotry, and the insistence that denying marriage rights to gay people is necessary because of the (false) belief that granting them will destroy familial relations and that this attitude is also therefore not bigotry, comes from a desire to avoid accepting just how wide-spread these attitudes may be. In truth, the attitudes of more than a few Chinese people reflected in the quoted comments IS out of bigotry, it does not matter that these people do not personally think that they hate blacks, hatred is an irrational emotion not subject to recognition or denial, but the fact that it is so obviously displayed when people infringe on their cherished notion of a ‘pure’ race is solid evidence of its existence. Hence the girl who, after telling me how China didn’t have racists, then went on to describe blacks as violent and dirty, Europeans as loose and immoral. Hence the man who, after telling me how friendly Chinese were to foreigner, then went on to say how arrogant he thought all foreigners were. Hence the economics professor who insisted to his students that (laughably) joblessness in China was due to foreigners coming to China to take Chinese jobs. Racism in China isn’t such a huge problem because China is racial homogeneous, but does it exist, and is it of the same kind found everywhere else? Yes.

     @Jason –

     “@ FOARP: The nationalists on this website believe as an article of faith that all negative reporting about China is false and biased, and will never accept otherwise. It is pointless to try to argue with them, you might as well try to tell a mad-man that the sky is blue when he insists that it is purple.

     This is such BS or your entire post is some kind of sarcasm. Either you are unwilling to accept our argument or distorting our argument of “that a few who is neutral or acceptable for this girl” is despicably wrong and that the guys in ChinaSmack needs a more unbiased story to tell and we STILL can talk about racism in China, I have no problem with that and neither will Charles Liu.

     FOARP, the only nationalist is you not me nor Charles Liu nor any people who wanted ChinaSmack to tell the full story of the other side and still talk about the racism in China.

     For FAUNA from ChinaSmack to come to tell FMer that it’s not their responsibility to tell the other side (which is quite a lot rather than “few”) and just focus on the “most” bad and a “few” good is utterly preposterous. It is YOUR duty to put unbiased story to let stupid (who thinks that just a few Chinese are neutral about this or positive about the girl) or intelligent (there’s has to be people who praised the girl or neutral) judge on the material.”

     As has been shown elsewhere, even where a clear weight of evidence has been gathered disproving bias, moderate nationalist commenters on this website refuse to except any other explanation for people publishing article not overwhelmingly favourable to China. That it is foolish to try and argue with extremists like Charles Liu is therefore a valid point, which you have done nothing to disprove.

     As Fauna pointed out, since her story was about racism, it was not central to her post that she quote non-racist sources- although she did anyway.

312. Cissy Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

     Raj#310,

     I am not saying Chinese are racism-free. In fact, China has a lot of its own “micro racism”, or “regional discrimination”, which is observed much more often than the real racism. After all, it is a country that overall majority is “yellow”, maybe with different level of shades, but that’s more on individual level.

     The point is, “Lou Jing Incident” is more about moral standard than racism. Nowadays, it’s not so rare to see Chinese-African mixed youngsters, especially in a place like Shanghai. With hundreds of thousands of African residing in Guangzhou, a lot of illegal, those kids will be popping up more in the coming years. I remember there is another black-yellow mixed kid story, also in Shanghai. He was deserted, then raised by kind strangers, on the way of becoming a basketball star. He was on TV, and people like him, completely different from some reactions Lou Jing got.

     Lou Jing got on some people’s nerve and made them say some politically incorrect words, is not simply because she’s half black. It’s a combination of the way she was born, her attitude, and her mother’s attitude. As I mentioned in #84, her mother had an affair with an African American, according to her, during her honeymoon. 9 month later, the kid came out and she couldn’t hide the adultery from the husband any more, thus divorced. It’s lucky for them to be in the communist China, even better, in a relatively open-minded Shanghai. If this is the democratic India, the mother and kid would long ago have been stoned and/or burnt to death 10 times already. However, from the way they behave, they don’t take this as a shame, but keep on emphasizing that the father is American, not African. You know, from a Chinese point of view, those Americans, mostly black, who went to national TV to do those “You are not the father” show, they are even lower than pigs. What Lou Jing and her mother did, put in a nicer way, is ahead of their time. It challenged the bottom line of the Chinese moral standard. They should be expecting that from the very beginning. The later protesting/condemning, in my eyes, is just part of the show to stir up and get more attention. People are willing to do anything for attention these days, especially the women who desperately need it to cash on.

     I watched the TV show Lou was co-hosting. She’s really not that good, in terms of basic qualification for a TV host, such as language skill, reaction, memorization etc. The 2 other senior co-hosts are actually quite nice to her on the stage, which is not always the case in the Shanghai entertainment world. You can easily find 100 girls better than her. She’s just taking advantage of her identify and publicity she got earlier. But how long can this last for her career, we will see.

313. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 7th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

     To Cissy:
     “The point is, “Lou Jing Incident” is more about moral standard than racism.” — are the morals any different if she were a child out-of-wedlock but of “pure” Chinese lineage, as opposed to one with an inter-racial background? Cuz I suspect there are plenty of examples of the former type running around in China (just like in any other country). Some people born out-of-wedlock might even be TV personalities in China. Are they, or would they be, subjected to the same reception as the one Ms. Jing received, if this were strictly a “moral” issue?

     “Lou Jing got on some people’s nerve and made them say some politically incorrect words, is not simply because she’s half black. It’s a combination of the way she was born, her attitude, and her mother’s attitude.” — you don’t need to be a fan of hers just because she’s black. Disliking a person for who they are is not racism. But disliking a person based on nothing but their skin colour is.

     I agree with your last paragraph. Cashing in on one’s notoriety seems not to be the exclusive domain of Hollywood.

314. Cissy Says:
     November 8th, 2009 at 7:26 am

     S.K. Cheung ＃313:

     Yes, for sure there are other children born out of wedlock in China, but people are definitely not proud of it. However, the worst part of her birth is not being a “bastard child”, neither being a “bastard child” of a black father. Her color is not really so dark, more like Jamaica type. I have a dark-skin Chinese classmate, with her having the summer tan, they would be at similar skin level, from cosmetic point of view. The worst part is that it happened during the honeymoon. If it were with another Chinese man, it would take the DNA test to find out, which is only available 10+ years later. Or some cliche from Japanese soap that accidental blood test mismatch revealing the big secret. The only excusable scenario is the mother and the dude were madly in love, but doesn’t seem to be the case, since she was quickly ditched and was not even sure who was the one impregnated her, and waited 9 months to get the answer. This is almost as gross as those “you are not the father” show. Of course, the dude being black doesn’t help either. Maybe wait for another 20 years, this can be tolerated. But not yet. That’s why I said they are ahead of their time.

     Another thing I also mentioned in #84 is that, the Chinese cyberspace is the most violent, irrational one I’ve ever seen. Whoever digging for “criminal evidence” there to prove real-life situation must be out of his/her mind. I once just congratulated Liu Xiang (the Chinese hurdler who dramatically withdrew himself from Olympics and caused huge controversial in the nation) on his return from medical treatment in US. It was on Sina. Then, I got so many violent comments filled with filthy words getting back to me. But this is just Internet. You turn off computer, then you won’t see it. That’s why I can’t help but linking the blogger to O.J. Simpson’s lawyer, the murder trial one. She started with the french system that you are guilty until proven innocent, and you can never prove you are innocent, because she has all the solid evidence against you, from this wonderful resource called Internet. Yes, the LAPD is racist, that’s why OJ didn’t kill anybody.

315. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 8th, 2009 at 8:16 am

     To Cissy:
     “The worst part is that it happened during the honeymoon.” — yes, perhaps the timing was not great. But then is there ever a good time for adultery? Besides, if people’s quarrel is with the mother, that’s fine. But then why the vitriol from some quarters against Ms. Jing herself? Surely she did nothing wrong.

     “If it were with another Chinese man, it would take the DNA test to find out, which is only available 10+ years later.” — this begs the question, if you were going to be a cuckold, would you like to find out ASAP, or years later? Obviously there’s no one answer to that one.

     “Of course, the dude being black doesn’t help either. Maybe wait for another 20 years, this can be tolerated. But not yet.” — this strikes at the heart of the matter. Why is it unhelpful that the dude was black? What does colour have to do with it? As I asked before, how would adultery with a Chinese guy have made it any better, or more palatable? If it all boils down to colour, that’s racism pure and simple.

     I’m not sure where you’re going with the second paragraph. FQ on the internet may be morons, but morons are people too. If your point is that the prevalence of racism on Chinese internet does not reflect the true prevalence of Chinese racism in general, that may well be true, but it’s still the 64 million dollar question that remains unanswered. And has been discussed at length earlier in this thread, that question may never be answered.

316. Cissy Says:
     November 8th, 2009 at 8:42 am

     #315
     The daughter was attacked for her “daddy is American” attitude.

     If the father were a Chinese, it probably wouldn’t be so harsh. But it won’t help either if the father were a Japanese. The only difference is, if she committed adultery with a Japanese guy, the baby’s identity wouldn’t have been so easily found out unless they went through DNA test, which is only available way later. There is this strong “foreign men took away our women” sentiment, which can become quite bitter and negative.

317. FOARP Says:
     November 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am

     “I am not saying Chinese are racism-free. In fact, China has a lot of its own “micro racism”, or “regional discrimination”, which is observed much more often than the real racism.”,

     . . . because in large swathes of China you can go months without seeing a non-Han person. When such attitudes are directed against Uighurs, for example, is this also ‘micro-racism’?

     “The point is, “Lou Jing Incident” is more about moral standard than racism.”

     Since those ‘moral’ standards include notions of racial purity (it is impossible to understand the opprobrium which women who go with non-Chinese men receive from some quarters otherwise), it is impossible to tell them apart, because they are the same thing. Racists in the Southern United States and elsewhere also make this argument. Anti-gay rights people also make this argument, as I pointed out above.

     “If this is the democratic India, the mother and kid would long ago have been stoned and/or burnt to death 10 times already. “

     Actually India has a substantial number of Anglo-Indians, Portuguese-Indians,and French-Indians, many born out of wedlock during the colonial era. The former Indian defence minister, George Fernandez, is a product of such a family. We might ask what could have happened had the child been born in the countryside instead of Shanghai.

     “I watched the TV show Lou was co-hosting. She’s really not that good, in terms of basic qualification for a TV host, such as language skill, reaction, memorization etc.”

     She is a hopeless singer, and lacks real showbiz talent. It is only her appearance that makes her unusual – what does this say?

318. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 8th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

     To Cissy:
     “The daughter was attacked for her “daddy is American” attitude.” — well, ok. But that was the truth. I guess the truth is more palatable to some than others. Reminds me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite movies, A Few Good Men – Cruise: “I want the truth!” / Nicholson: “You can’t handle the truth!”

     “If the father were a Chinese, it probably wouldn’t be so harsh.” — and once again, why is that? If this is strictly about morals (which to me it obviously is not), how is adultery with a Chinese man less morally reprehensible than adultery with a man of any other nationality/race?

     “There is this strong “foreign men took away our women” sentiment” — I suppose this explains the racism, but certainly doesn’t justify it.

     To FOARP:
     “Racists in the Southern United States and elsewhere also make this argument.” — so true. Only there, black men were killed just for speaking to white women once upon a time, never mind knocking one up. The difference is that they went after the man, and not the woman, as was seen in the Lou Jing scenario.

319. Bobby Chen Says:
     November 9th, 2009 at 4:15 am

     Roadblock says: “This lady is clearly causing a bit of an identity crisis among the Chinese. China, in the Chinese mind, is not just a defined territory. It is more importantly a people and a history. It is a paternal lineage of inbreeding and xenophobia, which, ever since the last ice age, has been struggling against the barbarians, and claiming exclusive property rights to a piece of turf in East Asia. Just take a look at the Great Wall. Can anyone find a more conspicuous symbol in the world of ethnic segregation?”

     Your idea of inbreeding and identity crisis is a subjective one based upon your personal feelings. The Great Wall was really a cultural divide between the agrarian civilization and the “barbaric” nomads eager for loot and anything they can take, including skilled artisans, slaves and women. Any identity crisis in the psyche of people of the Chinese nation is mostly the result of 2000 years of assimilation into the Chinese (Han) culture and civilization. Chinese civilization was the draw for all the nomadic “barbarian” types all around “Chinese” dynastic boundaries, and the answer you’ll mostly get from anthropology knowledgeable people is that “Han Chinese” ethnicity is really descended from a highly mixed bag of 3 popularly identified mongoloid groups 1) “descendants of Yan ang Huang”, legendary harbingers of agrarian Chinese civilization 2) so-called “altaic” nomadic hunter/gatherer people from north/east Asia such as Khitans, Xiongnu, Xianbei, etc. 3) and so-called “Turkic” nomadic hunter/gatherer people also originally from north/east Asian heartland such as Gok-Turks, Oghuz, Seljuks, etc. These people domiciled within Chinese empirical boundaries in a smorgasboard of amiable and advesarial relations with both Han and non-Han ruled dynasties, and a great deal of these ethnicities assimilated in earnest into the Han Chinese inspired civilization in the Southern and Northern Dynasties. But at the same time, many of these mainly culturally/linguistically distinct ethnic groups still maintain their own unique identity and lifestyle, unlike the natives situation in America and Russian Siberia, and may be confounded to a certain extent by some instances of Han nationalism, which is according to CCP law, is illegal (to raise ethnocentric nationalism), as it does damage to ethnic solidarity, and hence national solidarity. This is the real “identity crisis”, and is encouraged ironically, by the anti-Chinese national solidarity elements including the Taiwan Pan-Green Coalition/exiled Tibetans/Uyghurs, etc. The Chinese-world centered around the central plains in more than just another “piece of turf”, it’s a highly fertile, hotly-contested, and center of the world’s greatest economy for 2000 years of modern human history, until the late-18th century when European advancements in culture, science, and colonialism finally set China backwards in time. China will be celebrating 100th anniversary of the overthrow of the last dynastic rule in two years time, and much progress has yet to be made. Nobody really gives a damn about instances of adultery and infidility.

     Speaking of which, I applaude Lou Jing for having the courage to display her not yet fully developed talents on Dragon TV. The actions of her mother in conceiving her is irrevelant, unless of course, it was publicized solely to gain popularity over her actual artistic talent, in which the same crazy and racially-charged backlash would’ve ensued if it was right here in the good ‘ol USA if she was daughter of a white woman and black man. People. It’s 2009. Goto the bars and clubs around places in Beijing, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc. It’s quite common to find Asian men and women dating white, black, hispanic, etc.

320. Cissy Says:
     November 9th, 2009 at 8:30 am

     #319 Bobby Chen

     “People. It’s 2009. Goto the bars and clubs around places in Beijing, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc. It’s quite common to find Asian men and women dating white, black, hispanic, etc.”

     I think you still missed the part that adultery occurred during the honeymoon, which is the part I believe irritated most people. Not exactly your fault, since the blogger conveniently omitted this important “detail”. Well, seems some people in this discussion simply refused to take this into consideration so that they can hold the argument that Chinese are the Hitler of the modern time, or anything bad that comes along the way.

321. Cissy Says:
     November 9th, 2009 at 8:37 am

     #313 S.K. Cheung

     Thanks for omitting the “Son” & “SOB” part, but I think they are the best part of this 2 lines. BTW, Tom Cruise looked really good in that movie. But don’t worry, I come from a culture that calls everybody else “country people”. I can handle any truth, especially when they are discrimination related. However, if you consider the sentiment towards foreigner sleeping with Chinese women a racism, it’s up to you, but don’t complain about color again.

322. Jerry Says:
     November 9th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

     @Cissy

     Cissy, you wrote in #314:

     Another thing I also mentioned in #84 is that, the Chinese cyberspace is the most violent, irrational one I’ve ever seen. Whoever digging for “criminal evidence” there to prove real-life situation must be out of his/her mind.

     I can’t read Chinese, so I can’t comment on Chinese cyberspace, only what I read from translated posts. I can tell you that a segment of American cyberspace is violent and irrational. Many teabaggers, bigots, people who call Obama “Barack Bin Hitler”, neo-fascists, birthers are all pretty scary in what they write. Many of them spew hate and violent rhetoric.

     The hatred, sexism and racism displayed during the Lou Jing incident concern me. The hatred and intense anger displayed by FQ concerns me. The hatred, violence, bigotry which spews forth in American cyberspace concerns me. Examples of anti-Semitism concern me.

     “criminal evidence” Hmmmm. That is quite an overreach, Cissy. You are the first to use that term here on this thread. Are you trying to create a bogeyman here for some reason? Personally, I have seen evidence/signs of racism, sexism, and hatred in the LJ incident, FQ writings and protests, and in American cyberspace. Would I suggest criminal prosecution? No. Would I suggest ignoring it and burying your head in the sand? No.

     When I use the term, “evidence”, it is in the vein of scientific evidence and/or observations, not judicial evidence. BTW, I have told Allen, who is an attorney, many times that I don’t think like an attorney and don’t want to and have no desire to do so.

     Cissy, you wrote, in #316:

     There is this strong “foreign men took away our women” sentiment, which can become quite bitter and negative.

     I have no problem with people having opinions and feelings. That is okay with me. Where I have a problem is when they express those opinions and feelings in a hateful, vengeful, bitter, racist, murderous and/or sexist manner. That to me is indicative of a troubled psyche, full of pathologies and toxicities. And we saw examples of that during the LJ incident. And as SK writes in #318 in response to your statement, “I suppose this explains the racism, but certainly doesn’t justify it.”

     As FOARP pointed out in #317, “Racists in the Southern United States and elsewhere also make this argument. Anti-gay rights people also make this argument, as I pointed out above.”

     Cissy, you wrote in response to Bobby Chen, “I think you still missed the part that adultery occurred during the honeymoon, which is the part I believe irritated most people.” (#320)

     Again, I have no problem with people having opinions and feelings. I get concerned when the expression of those opinions and feelings becomes intensely vitriolic, venomous and hateful.

     Cissy, you continued with Bobby in #320:

     Well, seems some people in this discussion simply refused to take this into consideration so that they can hold the argument that Chinese are the Hitler of the modern time, or anything bad that comes along the way.

     “Chinese are the Hitler of the modern time, or anything bad that comes along the way”? Again, that is quite an overreach, Cissy. Unless I missed it, you are the first to use these comparisons here on this thread. Again, are you trying to create a bogeyman here for some reason?

     I don’t seem to recall anybody here at FM branding the Chinese as inherently evil or the reincarnation of Hitler. Maybe I missed it.

     Let me say it one more time.

     “Again, I have no problem with people having opinions and feelings. I get concerned when the expression of those opinions and feelings becomes intensely vitriolic, venomous and hateful.”

     And I don’t trust people who wish to dismiss vitriol, venom and hate. I hope that is not what you meant when you wrote to SK in #321:

     “However, if you consider the sentiment towards foreigner sleeping with Chinese women a racism, it’s up to you, but don’t complain about color again.”

     Just curious, Cissy, what does the phrase ‘I come from a culture that calls everybody else “country people” ‘ mean?

323. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 9th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

     To Cissy:
     “some people in this discussion simply refused to take this into consideration” — actually, it’s been considered, but simply deemed, in my mind at least, to be irrelevant, especially as it pertains to the reaction to Ms. Jing, who obviously had nothing to do with it. Some people seem equally incapable of recognizing that.

     “if you consider the sentiment towards foreigner sleeping with Chinese women a racism,” — you can bet your Lifesavers that I do.

     ” it’s up to you,” — damn right it is. And it shocks me that people would argue otherwise. But whatever floats your boat.

     ” but don’t complain about color again.”— I haven’t started to complain about colour, so I’m not sure when I’d do it “again”. And given our apparent proclivities, it seems I’d be much less likely to start than you are.

     You know, maybe I’ll channel my inner Wahaha, and offer an example for illustrative purposes. Let’s suppose a Caucasian woman is married to a Caucasian man, and while on her honeymoon, she commits adultery with a Chinese man, who then takes off and is never heard from again. Let’s even suppose this guy is from China. The woman, 9 months later, bears a daughter named Jane Smith who is half Chinese and half Caucasian. 19 years later, Ms. Smith enters American Idol. So here’s the question: would it be acceptable to you if some among the American public vilify Ms. Smith for her interracial skin tone and out-of-wedlock pedigree? If your answer is “yes”, then I am truly speechless. If your answer is “no”, at least I’m relieved, but would then like to know how this hypothetical scenario differs in principle from Ms. Jing’s circumstances.

324. HKer Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 2:06 am

     Wow, 323 comments, and still going… #323 SKC… LOL, excellent reversed scenario…

     I would have thought this silly debate would have simmered down by post #86
     where SKC goes: “It’s nice to see that no one is suggesting any longer that Chinese are incapable of racism. And of course no one is suggesting all Chinese are racist, ” and then came FOARP, who very early on had had a brief moment of lucidity, but as human do – fell into temptation – but nevertheless did hit the nail on the head: “Lou Jing didn’t win the show because her singing truly sucks….. There’s no way she should have gone any further, ” which outta have nailed the case shut….and the casket burried by post #286: where tptianguo Says: “Oh come on, you guys are just here to defend your ethnic ego. Change is better than denial…..I’d say this pubescent phase should pass in a decade or two.”

     Anyways, until that phase is unpon us, I think even now, the Chinese audience at large have learned something important. And so for the meantime, all I wanna say is this: “Best of luck to you, Lou Jing (娄婧) , and that Mama Lou deserves all the praise, respect and well wishes that are due her.

325. Wukailong Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 3:15 am

     @SKC (#323): “You know, maybe I’ll channel my inner Wahaha, and offer an example for illustrative purposes.”

     ROFL

     Foolsmountain was started in 2008 and there’s already people that have disappeared in the mist of legend. I found myself thinking of Wahaha the other day, wondering what his life must be like in NYC, and whether he really was as angry as he sounded. (Moderators: I know this is unrelated. Give me a warning rather than collapsing the comment, OK? 🙂 )

     @Cissy (#206): “There is this strong “foreign men took away our women” sentiment, which can become quite bitter and negative.”

     That’s actually quite typical of racism anywhere.

     I’m currently reading Martin Jacques’ “When China rules the world”, which is very positive towards China, but he considers Chinese racist attitudes one of the defining characteristics of the country. While I don’t agree with this, he does quote a lot of sources and it would be silly to dismiss it out of hand. I’ll share these when I’ve finished the book – it’s quite a tome.

326. Cissy Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 3:21 am

     S.K. Cheung’s reverse scenario does not apply, because the american society is perfectly ok to accept those “you are not the father” show, or something even “morally lower”. It does not make sense to compare 2 scenarios in incomparable settings.

     #322 Jerry, I noticed you are the nicer one here. I will last time comment on this topic answering your concern. First, “I am from a culture that calls everybody else country people”. That is the stereotyped image of people from Shanghai, which however, does hold some truth, although it’s becoming less common these days. We do call peopole from other provinces, including Beijing, TW and HK, country people乡下人，京巴，台巴子，港巴子. Americans could be included as well, in this case, american countrymen. 美国乡下人. Well, we even call it among ourselves, so it sounds more severe and “discriminative” than it actually is. That’s why I said I can handle any truth about discrimination, since we are stereotyped to discriminate out of habit by our culture.

     The Lou Jing incident, I heard it some months ago, when it was actually happening. If I got the information only from here, I might have sympathy towards them and condemn the people who belittled them. However, there is more to the story that the blogger conveniently omitted. That reminded me of other things that the media reported on China-related issues.

     Back to the incident, 3 points:
     1. Honeymoon being the timeframe of the adultery. That even turned off somebody like me who still believed in romance, doesn’t matter the object of the romance is white yellow red black cream. I even openly support gay marriage, but this is beyond the level I can accept by my moral standard. Then imagine the reaction from a general chinese population who in average holds more traditional value than me. However, it’s other people’s private business, and it’s only the fault of the mother.

     2. Then the mother and daughter used the story to gain publicity. They live in that society. They should know what they are getting. It’s not like they are 2 innocent little lambs waiting to be eaten by all the animals in the forest. They eventually did get what they want. Then you pay for what you get. It’s fair and expected for them to get all those belittling. I am sure they weren’t expecting to be treated like Jean d’Arc. Well, cashing your skeleton in the closet, I guess that’s not a very glorious thing to do.

     3. Then their claim and emphasis that “Daddy is american, not african”. I am not sure how important is color playing a role here. If the claim is “Daddy is american, not albanian”, it won’t be too much different. I don’t know what to call this in English, “going for the higher branch”? Even the higher branch ditched you like a piece of rag, you still feel more superior than others because you were the rag ditched by the higher branch. Well, hard to explain, but there is this “american” sentiment that could have put off quite a lot people who could have some sympathy towards the daughter, including myself.

     That’s why I have very negative feeling towards this blog. To me, it’s just another China-bashing material, like a lot of other things since last year. Just this time, it’s about chinese people. Great, even an illegitimate child could be used to bash China now. Why nobody ever say something about the worst person in the whole story, the black american dude who had fun with other people’s bride then disappeared forever?

     Last comment. No more time will be wasted on this.

327. Wukailong Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 3:28 am

     @tptianguo (#286): “When China is 10% black, 20% latino with immigrants flooding the borders and being “proud” of their heritage instead of assimilating in Han culture, and when interracial marriages are commonplace then we’ll compare with other people. Not that I support the idea, though.”

     Interesting that you mention 10% black, 20% latino since I guess in Europe, you would rather have 10% Arabic and 2-3% of people of other races, as well as 1-2% of indigenous people that would be of another race (like gypsies). The US still seems the most mixed place to me in terms of race, though I’ve heard countries like Brazil and Cuba are quite mixed too. In Sweden 13% of the population is immigrant or descendants from immigrants (in the last couple of generations) but like a visitor once said, it feels monoracial in comparison to the US.

     The least mixed place I’ve been to in the latter country was Mississippi, where I visited Jackson and a couple of smaller towns with a friend. Everyone was either white or black, and people still seemed segregated even though there’s no longer any laws requiring it.

328. Wukailong Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 3:38 am

     @Cissy (#): “S.K. Cheung’s reverse scenario does not apply, because the american society is perfectly ok to accept those “you are not the father” show, or something even “morally lower”. It does not make sense to compare 2 scenarios in incomparable settings.”

     On the sidelines: I agree China as a whole is more “traditional” than societies in Europe and the US, but there’s also a lot of hypocrisy going on. I’ve never heard as many stories of extra-marital affairs as I have here in China. Of course that’s purely anecdotal, but if proven true it wouldn’t surprise me because I believe moral standards are actually worse the more conservative you are.

     One funny experience here was when I was told of somebody having an affair. The person telling me quickly added that “it’s OK in your country, but here in China we look down on it.” I didn’t say anything, but it’s really interesting how people deceive themselves.

329. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 4:45 am

     #326:
     1. “it’s only the fault of the mother.” — fair enough. She’s the one who committed adultery, and the buck should stop with her.
     2. “Then the mother and daughter used the story to gain publicity.” — quite possibly. And when you seek the public eye, you should expect an increased level of public scrutiny. But that’s not the point. The point is whether racist attitudes and remarks constitute appropriate or commensurate scrutiny. I honestly don’t know how one could feel that they do. Though as I always say, to each their own.

     3. “but there is this “american” sentiment that could have put off quite a lot people who could have some sympathy towards the daughter, including myself.” — if it’s off-putting for some, fine. But does that excuse racist vitriol? Not to me it doesn’t.

     “Why nobody ever say something about the worst person in the whole story, the black american dude who had fun with other people’s bride then disappeared forever?” — he’s certainly part of the story, but since it’s an anonymous guy, tough to get too worked up about someone without a name or a face. Though there’s nothing stopping you either.

     “S.K. Cheung’s reverse scenario does not apply, because the american society is perfectly ok to accept those “you are not the father” show, or something even “morally lower”.”
     — I think you’re confusing things. The point of this thread, and of what I was trying to illustrate, was racist attitudes. It’s not about the “relative morality” of Chinese vs American society. Although if you’re trying to suggest that CHinese society is somehow more “moral” owing to an apparent aversion to adultery and infidelity, I think you’re not giving Chinese folks enough credit…or maybe way too much. Just as WKL suggests in #328. Besides, even something that you find morally reprehensible should not be a justification for racism, which, ironically, should be similarly morally reprehensible in and of itself. You seem to consistently conflate the “morals of infidelity” with racism…not sure why that is.

330. Rhan Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 6:07 am

     Hker,
     I often feel Hongkonger is arrogance, while Taiwanese is friendly and Mainlander is humble though all of them are Chinese, and I think not all would share the same feeling as mine. Being a Chinese from a country with full fledge racism, and Chinese that were discriminated for few century in their own land, perhaps some may find it odd and unbelievable that Chinese is also capable to discriminate and act in an arrogance way. Hence many of us tends to see thing from our angle and try to explore a bit what is the cause, and to find out if there is any unique reason behind such attitude and try not to draw conclusion solely base on some comment made on the internet. Is that silly?

     If there is the same racist comment from black that made against the white that went on in a website, and we claim that the black is being racism, don’t you think the black will make exactly the same so-called silly rebut? Shall not we try to see thing from the black perspective as well?

     And apart from this, sometimes the rebuke is not necessary to mean we agree or disagree with a subject but rather, we can’t stand to see some commentators that portray themselves as one with moral high ground to lecture others base on their own values system. Read the slang, tone and language they use, is that not itself a kind of prejudice and discrimination?

331. Wukailong Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 7:03 am

     @Rhan (#330): “If there is the same racist comment from black that made against the white that went on in a website, and we claim that the black is being racism, don’t you think the black will make exactly the same so-called silly rebut? Shall not we try to see thing from the black perspective as well?”

     There are discussions on this in sociology, based on whether similar reactions in different contexts should be viewed as fundamentally different. For example, since blacks are discriminated against, their racism means something else than the dominant white majority. I think there is something to this, but I think we should still see it as similar reactions rather than something completely different. Self-defence can still be violence.

332. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 7:08 am

     To Rhan,
     denouncing racism without caveats, equivocation, or the offering of a litany of excuses, certainly seems like a reasonable position to me. That some commentators might bemoan the portrayal or implicit acknowledgment of that position to be occupying some moral high ground speaks less about that position itself, and more about the potential unease those commentators may have with their own.

333. Bobby Chen Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 9:05 am

     Cissy: Bobby Chen ““People. It’s 2009. Goto the bars and clubs around places in Beijing, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc. It’s quite common to find Asian men and women dating white, black, hispanic, etc.””

     Cissy: “I think you still missed the part that adultery occurred during the honeymoon, which is the part I believe irritated most people. Not exactly your fault, since the blogger conveniently omitted this important “detail”.”

     Yes this is indeed an exceedingly outstanding case of adultery, and since it has come to light in the court of public opinion, Lou Jing’s mum, so crass in her actions and behavior, shall certainly be vehmently regarded in the lowest of form. Is it it true she even lied to her cuckold’ husband that “their” daughter’s unusual dark complexion was the result of bad mix of herbal remedies during her pregnancy? In some countries, Lou Jing’s mum would’ve been tied to a stake and set alight, maybe along with her daughter as well. But this is Chinese civilization, and Lou Jing and her mum should actually be quite thankful only to receive indignant, perhaps some poignant racial insults and slanders attributed to some “Chinese users”.

     As someone also mentioned earlier, this classic case of crooked adultery instigated by a horny woman, and perhaps a desperate or seduced foreign man, happened two decades ago: a darker less dignifying time of China’s then still peculiarly regressed society. I think the main complaint among the people of the Chinese civilization today, as I’m familiar with them, would first and foremost be the act of infidelity, followed by the satire of the perpetrators egg, and that of the cuckold’s sperm, getting beaten to the egg by the accomplice’s sperm. One may ponder at the significance, or lack thereof, of why the perpetrator’s African American mate did not claim his beautifull Afro-Chinese baby, and bring her to such a nice environment as the USA for nurturing and cultivation: was it because of simple ignorance, financial situation, another more comitted relationship, or perhaps he could not rise up to Lou Jing’s mum’s Ah-Q spirituality? And why not? Chinese men I see going out and fornicating with plenty of foreign women from around the globe looking for Qin warrior to spice up their lives, and if the relationship works out well (Chinese man doesn’t act like Lou Jing’s mum’s fling-accomplice), these Chinese men are not bound by the One-Child Policy. But then again, those are cases of real love. Lou Jing’s mum got dumped.

     What’s the moral in after all is said and done? I think men and women and China will continue to be horny, and if anyone of these people would like to partake on some foreign fling, without ulterior motives, then use contraceptives, please.

     Yours truly, Bobby Chen

     Idol TV is not about morals or idealism, but commericially lucrative fad and sensationalism,

334. HKer Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

     Rhan Says: “I often feel (1)Hongkonger is arrogance” – I am glad you think that only one Hongkonger, presumably me, is arrogant. But seriously, I think the people of Hong Kong has the reputation for working very hard, and playing hard. And regardless of what you may feel, Rhan, the people of HK – as a fact, mostly love China, and have always been the first to respond to the people’s needs unreservedly as well as wholeheartedly share in the pride and joy with the people of their ancestral home.

     “while (2)Taiwanese is friendly”

     OooKay…well, I am very glad to hear that, and I think FOARP, Steve, and especially Jerry, who currently resides in Taiwan, is happy to hear that too.

     and (3)Mainlander is humble … “Being a Chinese from a country with full fledge racism,” – Wo, wo wo, wait just a second. Where in this China is your sentimental-self yammering this nonesense from ? I have been visiting China for over ten years and have lived in China for 6 years, – Geeze, I had no idea that it is a country with full fledge racism. In fact, I think it is less racist in some respects than other countries I’ve visited and lived in.

335. Jerry Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

     @Cissy #326

     Some comments.

     Cissy, thanks for the compliment, but I am not a saint. Not even close. Sometimes I am not so nice.

     Cissy, I believe that SK’s “reverse” hypothesis is valid. He just is “putting the shoe on the other foot” and asking how you feel. Racist, sexist, hateful vitriol is wrong, whether it comes from Americans or Chinese or whomever.

     There is racism in the US, now. The Obama campaign brought to the surface some vicious racism, lies, hatred, insanity about Obama. I have heard vicious, racist comments made about Chinese Americans, Jewish Americans, African Americans, Muslims, Mexican immigrants, Mexican-Americans, etc. I have heard Obama referred to as Barack Bin Hitler and Barack HUSSEIN Obama.

     That is why when I read some of those comments about Lou Jing, I heard racism, hatred, intense anger, and sexism coming out of some people with very sick psyches. It is the same vile vitriol, venom and hate I hear from some Americans. And being Jewish, I wasn’t surprised at all and it was not difficult to detect. Furthermore, morbid psyches are not limited to any one nationality, race, religion or creed. Or even East or West.

     Individual bloggers, reporters, journalists, authors, newspapers, media outlets, magazines are not obligated to be impartial and objective. They should be truthful about what they write or broadcast. They should report as they find.

     Let me quote from Bill Moyers, an ardent defender of a free, robust and diverse press if there ever was one. This is from #141 above.

     So what must we devise to make the media safe for individuals stubborn about protecting freedom and serving the truth? And what do we all—educators, administrators, legislators and agitators—need to do to restore the disappearing diversity of media opinions? America had plenty of that in the early days when the republic and the press were growing up together. It took no great amount of capital and credit—just a few hundred dollars—to start a paper, especially with a little political sponsorship and help. There were well over a thousand of them by 1840, mostly small-town weeklies. And they weren’t objective by any stretch. Here’s William Cobbett, another Anglo-American hell-raiser like Paine, shouting his creed in the opening number of his 1790s paper, Porcupine’s Gazette. “Peter Porcupine,” Cobbett’s self-bestowed nickname, declared:

     Professions of impartiality I shall make none. They are always useless, and are besides perfect nonsense, when used by a newsmonger; for, he that does not relate news as he finds it, is something worse than partial; and . . . he that does not exercise his own judgment, either in admitting or rejecting what is sent him, is a poor passive tool, and not an editor.

     In Cobbett’s day you could flaunt your partisan banners as you cut and thrust, and not inflict serious damage on open public discussion because there were plenty of competitors. It didn’t matter if the local gazette presented the day’s events entirely through a Democratic lens. There was always an alternate Whig or Republican choice handy—there were, in other words, choices. …

     I read your 3 points. You are most assuredly entitled to your opinions. The issue here on this thread is not about whether one is entitled to one’s opinions and feelings. One is most assuredly entitled. Rather, the issue is how one expresses their opinions and feelings. You, Cissy, express your opinion calmly; for that I am thankful, whether I agree or not. Some, unfortunately, have expressed their opinions in an irrational, hateful, racist and sexist manner. I have a problem with that.

     That’s why I have very negative feeling towards this blog. To me, it’s just another China-bashing material, like a lot of other things since last year. Just this time, it’s about chinese people. Great, even an illegitimate child could be used to bash China now.

     Cissy, I understand negative feelings towards this blog. In my case, it is towards some here at FM who will seemingly always defend China, right or wrong, via any means necessary. It seems to me that they only care if China “wins” somehow. So rather than wallowing in those negative feelings, I write some people off. Sometimes it is for the short term, sometimes for a long duration and possibly forever (I have a hard time using the terms “never”, “ever” and “forever”). And I keep going on as best I can.

336. Jerry Says:
     November 10th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

     @HKer #334

     I think Rhan, in his comment, “Being a Chinese from a country with full fledge racism”, is referring to his country, Malaysia. Please see his remark in #218, “and my beloved country, Malaysia”.

     And then again, I may be wrong. Who knows?

337. HKer Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 12:40 am

     Jerrry,

     Thanks again for the enlightenment.

     But then again, who knows, indeed, particularly with someone who writes such sweeping know-it-all statement, “I often feel Hongkonger is arrogance, while Taiwanese is friendly and Mainlander is humble ,”

     As for “Being a Chinese from a country (Malaysia) with full fledge racism”

     Rhan, I concede that I am ill-informed on this matter to debate with you on this one here. As this is but our personal opinions, therefore, may it be surficed to say that having also lived in your wonderful country for years, I certainly had had not experienced such, as you put it, “full fledged” racism. I still have many friends there, most doing very well, proud and happy, be they considered as so-called Orang Aslis (non-Muslims) and Bumiputras*(Muslim Malays).
     Sure, in the 1970s, the Malaysian government implemented policies to close the social gap for the country’s disadvantaged majority people groups, a corrective measure against the Colonial legacy of favoring the Malaysian merchant class, something akin to what the US called affirmative action for their hitherto criminally discriminated disadvantaged minorities.
     Anyway, history & politics aside, for a country with such vibrant cultural diversity, I think Malaysia is indeed a genuine multi-cultural success story – It is great to be able to converse in, up to 5 or more different Chinese dialects, including Bahasa Malaysia & English at any social gatherings. And oh, the joy of the incredible choice of authentic ethnic and fusion dishes, the many festivities, new year celebrations, and the endless subtle integration of myriad shades of Asian and European customs.

     Bumiputra:*
     “If one of the parents is Muslim Malay or indigenous native of Sabah as stated in Article 160 (2) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus the child is considered as a Bumiputra”

338. Rhan Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 12:59 am

     Hker,
     Everyone see things from their own perspective and what they had experience. See, you immediately come to a defensive mode when I tell Hongkonger is arrogant. I come from a racism country, when I read through the so-called comments on Lou Jing, I think it is merely kind of sensationalism with juvenile mentality, in Cantonese we say 细路仔玩泥沙? However I can’t expect everyone to share my feeling and I believe some would take it seriously, hence I put forward my point of view, in Mandarin we say 真理越辩越明?

     My claim that “Hongkonger is arrogance” is what I experienced during my trip to HK while doing shopping along with some mainlander colleague many years back, some sales personal attitude is really disgusting. No wonder Andy Lau says 今时今日甘既服务态度系唔得咖 。But it seem everything is getting better and better when Mainlander is now the 财神爷。

     To tell you the truth and between you and me only, Hongkonger is the most civilise among the many Chinese and Mainlander is the most rude. 🙂

     And thanks Jerry for the clarification on behalf.

339. HKer Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 1:17 am

     Rhan,

     I was not being defensive, god knows HK sucks in so many ways – that is why I am living in the Mainland, ha ha. I was merely commenting on your 反话. If I had known you were a Malaysian, I would not have taken the bait – so to speak, ha ha.
     Cheers.

340. Rhan Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 1:52 am

     My understanding of racism.

     KUCHING: Getting her Sijil Pelajaran Malaysia (SPM) result was the best – and the worst thing that could happen to Marina Undau.

     The 18 year old science stream student of SMK Simanggang scored 9As and 1B in the SPM examination last year.

     She thought she was on her way to university, especially being a Bumiputra and all, but that was not to be.

     Born to an Iban father and a Chinese mother, Marina’s life was turned upside down when her application to undergo a university matriculation programme was rejected by the Ministry of Education. The Ministry determined that she is not a ‘Bumiputra’.

     He dreams were crushed and in the process she lost part of her identity and the drive that that made her a top scorer. With no chance of entering university for now, Marina has started Form 6 in her old school.

     Asked what she thought of everything that was happening, she replied: “What worries me is that will this happen again when I pass my STPM next year?” And what confuses Marina more is how her elder sister could further her studies in Universiti Sains Malaysia in Pulau Pinang where she is now in her second year without ever having her identity questioned.

     When Marina’s application was rejected, Undau (the father) contacted the Education Ministry’s Matriculation Department in Putrajaya on June 23 and was told that her daughter was not a ‘Bumiputra’.

     Dissatisfied, the father, a government servant, wrote to the ministry on July 1 and the reply he got shocked him, and it bound to challenge the identity of many Sarawakians who are born of mixed parentage.

     The ministry said in a reply on July 14 that Undau’s appeal was turned down because “the candidate is categorized as non-Bumiputra (father is Iban and mother Chinese)” based on a definition used by the Student Intake Management Division, Higher Learning Department and Higher Education Ministry.

     Their definition is as follows:
     # Semenanjung – If either parent of a candidate is Malay who is a Muslim/Orang Asli as defined in Article 160 (2) of the Federal Constitution, the child is considered a Bumiputra.

     # Sabah – If the father of the candidate is a Malay/native of Sabah as defined by Article 161a(6)(a) of the Federal Constitution, the child is considered a Bumiputra.

     # Sarawak – If the father and mother is a native of Sarawak as defined under Article 161A (6)(b) of the Federal Constitution, the child is considered a Bumiputra.

341. Cissy Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 4:35 am

     http://news.ifeng.com/society/2/200911/1110_344_1429100.shtml

     Google has an auto translate feature if you need it.

     Instead of commenting, I am posting this relevant story and let the fact speak for itself. Why this girl received completely different treatment from what the other mother and daughter pair got? I guess Lou Jing & Mom should know it better, since they are one who did what they did. A little statement: We Shanghainese are not village people. We don’t make fuss on creamy babies, nor on brown babies.

     Just my impression, feel free to classify this as racism, seems black guys have strong sperms but lack sense of responsibility.

342. HKer Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 4:43 am

     Rhan,

     Are you from this nice capital city of Sarawak, KUCHING aka Cat town?

     Are you a / an (ex) Thomian, St. Marian maiden, Josephian, St.Teresa’s babe, Kuching High flyer, Green Roader or….????.

343. Jerry Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

     @Cissy #341

     Whoa, Cissy! Please slow down.

     Honey, your anger and moral indignation are getting the better part of you.

     “Just my impression, feel free to classify this as racism, seems black guys have strong sperms but lack sense of responsibility.”

     Cissy, you have every right to be indignant when a man walks away from his responsibility as father of the child. But that moral indignation does not justify racist remarks, such as the one above. You are accusing all black guys of irresponsibility.

     For the record, my daughter’s boyfriend, Kevin, is a black African American. He is very responsible, kind, loving, hard-working and caring. My daughter is a doctor, an orthopedic surgeon resident; Kevin is a 4th year medical student who will soon become a doctor and orthopedic surgeon resident. Furthermore, Kevin has an undergraduate degree in biomechanical engineering and a Master of Public Health, both from Yale University. I would be happy if he became my son-in-law. In addition, his mother and father are very responsible, caring, loving parents.

     So would you like to tell Kevin that he lacks a “sense of responsibility”?

     You also said, “We Shanghainese are not village people. We don’t make fuss on creamy babies, nor on brown babies.” Are you implying that all Shanghaians are morally upstanding people? Or, all Shanghaians are nice? If so, that would be as absurd as saying that all Black men “lack sense of responsibility”.

     I would bet you that some white men, some Chinese men, some Jewish men, some Western men, some Eastern men, some Shanghaian men, some Taipeian men, etc. “lack sense of responsibility”.

     BTW, Google auto-translate is as clear as mud. I found an article at ChinaHush (Shanghainese girl gives birth to black baby, her parents ignore the matter) about this. It seems to have a different interpretation than your article.

     I tried to go out to Shanghai Daily online, but the wonderful, omniscient GFW blocked me. Thank you, GFW.

344. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 11th, 2009 at 9:02 pm

     To Cissy #341:
     “Why this girl received completely different treatment from what the other mother and daughter pair got?” — who knows? Perhaps this proves once and for all that not all Chinese are racists, and in fact many aren’t. But I thought we knew that already. Then again, we’re talking about a desolate young woman and a newborn infant, so perhaps even the most bigoted person can look past their bigotry for a second and recognize the unmet basic human needs in this case.

     “We don’t make fuss on creamy babies, nor on brown babies.” — fantastic. You must be so proud.

     “Just my impression, feel free to classify this as racism, seems black guys have strong sperms but lack sense of responsibility.” — you guessed it. Your “impression” is about as racist as they come. You must be so proud of that as well.

345. RomanticTease Says:
     November 12th, 2009 at 5:38 am

     My gosh….what kind of people flush this BS out of there thoughts…this girl is BEAUTIFUL!…I am african american, better known to all of you as “black”…which i have yet to see a black man in my life….dark brown, or near, but not black… But anyway, I have high praise for anyone wanting to see “us” as just people too…we didn’t bomb Japan or enslave chinese or are so vehemently racist as to coin phrases such as “chink” or “gook”… or any other ignorant term. We are victims just like you…I hear about how chinese people “bleach” their skin to become “white”…If they come to America, everyone wants TAN skin…not some pale polar bear skin type!….it’s just not in now days…believe me.

     I see how asian women look at the white man as king to be admired and cherished…I can’t believe how you are so sold out to thinking everyone else is below them and won’t even think about how wonderful it is to be free from racism.

     I must say, I really admire asian culture, it’s beautiful and has so much history…and chinese women hold the 9th wonder of the world with their own beauty. I have Chinese men friends who have come to America and lived in my home!…I ask all the time about how I would be treated if I came to China…but wow, from the looks of this email string… I would hate to even visit…and some of you will say “good”….but remember something….I do not hate you… I do not make fun of the way you look or talk or your mannerisms…I love the culture and love the people and maybe one day, you all will see that we are really no different than you…we have good, bad and ugly… and he who is without sin….cast the first stone.

346. Steve Says:
     November 12th, 2009 at 5:46 am

     Hi RT~ welcome to the blog and thanks for your input. Just to let you know, we stay away from profanity and personal insults on this blog so I changed one word of your post. Thanks!

347. Steve Says:
     November 12th, 2009 at 5:53 am

     I’ve been staying out of this discussion for awhile but have followed all the arguments. Thanks to everyone for their input and keeping the discussion civil most of the time.

     Based on what I’ve read and my own experiences, there is some mean-spirited racism in China but for most it’s racism based on ignorance. That kind of racism can be cured. However, no racist I ever met thought they were racist. They would say they are just using “common sense” and aren’t into all this “politically correct” nonsense and maybe even apply Deng’s old expression of “seek truth from facts” but then I listen to what they actually say and it isn’t common sense, has nothing to do with political correctness and isn’t based on facts, just ol’ fashioned prejudice.

     My sister in law here in the States wanted both her kids to marry Chinese or Chinese Americans even though her second husband is white. That way her grandkids would have “pure blood”, whatever that means. And she’s not the only one; I’ve heard that from many Chinese mothers concerning their kids’ potential marriage partners.

     The funny thing is that with advanced DNA studies, the most accepted theory is that the human race started in Africa, some migrated through the Arabian peninsula and eventually spread to the area around Kerala in southern India. From there, migration headed northward into the Ganges and Indus river valleys, and from there to the rest of Asia and eventually the world. Well, unless you are a fundamentalist Christian and think the world is 6000 years old. So from that it’s obvious that we all have more in common than we have differences, and most of the differences are superficial or cultural.

     Is this girl talented? Not so much, but how many other girls on that show displayed the same lack of talent? Were they subject to racial taunts? If the criticisms about her were based on her talent, I would not only understand but agree. But when those criticisms are based on her race, then the bias is pretty obvious.

     What her mother did is no reflection on Lou Jing. I’m sure she feels she is talented, and she is also quite pretty. But I wonder how many girls born out of wedlock would have faced this line of questioning? And I’m stumped why anyone had a problem when she said her father wasn’t African but American. If he’s a black American, of course he’s American. Do you realize that the vast, vast majority of black Americans are of mixed race? The ones who are not are still Americans. To say her father is African makes no sense and is another reflection of ignorance. Just visit the States and then visit any country in Africa if you don’t believe me. Sometimes if you don’t understand the history, it’s best to be quiet before you stick your foot in your mouth. Most black American families go back further in US history than the majority of white Americans.

     I spent enough time in China to know how many businessmen have mistresses and how common affairs were over there, not just with men but also with women. I know how many Taiwan and Hong Kong businessmen have “second wives” in China. To act like Lou Jing is so unusual to be born out of wedlock is nonsense. It happens over there all the time. The difference is that it is not discussed in talent contests. Acting as though her situation is so unusual is hypocritical. The only difference between her and other children born out of wedlock is her skin color.

     There are responsible and irresponsible people from every race and culture. Stereotyping by race is racism, pure and simple.

     RomanticTease, I think you’d enjoy China more than you’d think. One thing I always kept in the back of my mind while there was that I was representing my country and the opinion people formed of me would probably be their opinion of all Americans. I think if you went over there, you’d be helping to cure the ignorance and replace it with understanding, simply by letting people know you. You’d have a great experience and the people you met would develop knowledge and understanding rather than thinking in the same old stereotypical ways.

348. RomanticTease Says:
     November 13th, 2009 at 8:25 am

     Thanks Steve for enlightening some of our consciousness regarding some very factual statements. My humble apologies if any of my statements or terms are or were offensive….on the other side of the coin, I felt and still feel that my skin color or association with my “skin” is what’s behind all the debate. It really has nothing to do with how educated or how handsome or pretty a man of color like myself is or are… the real issue is deep seated stereotypes.

     I do however agree with you about enjoying China…I have been invited so many times, and as stated in my message, I have had quite a few Chinese men and women in my home living with me. They are foreign students. Now, getting back to what my perceptions are, I don’t have any deep seated discriminatory issues regarding Chinese people or culture, what I do think is that some if not most live in a homogenous society where they see little or no formal contact with outsiders…and if they do experience some form of inter world co-mingling I would assume that it should be a wake up call that yes…other people exist in this world too.

     Now as far as I see it….the only reason that ANY person who or group dislikes another is based on either a person experience or what they perceive that person to be. Maybe TV, Movie or some negative rumor based on no real world association. The perception is totally based on stereotypical imagery coming from across the globe and especially the U.S.

     I have dated Chinese women and am happy that they at least tell me the truth behind some of the prejudices coming form their own people… I must however say I relish in the stares and smiles that I get when I am with my date….I am comfortable enough to be more than relaxed, since I woke up and started interracial dating.

     I just hope people leave this poor girl alone….they stole something from her that we african americans have been feeling since day 1….and for most who want light skin so that they can somehow assimilate into caucasian culture, believe me….when it comes down to it….your always going to be …….blank American…not “American”.

     Okay… I pray for this young beautiful girl…and remember as my friend who was from the middle east told me when he first met me as I was picking him up from the train station…not knowing I was african american….”Hey…is it safe where you live?”…I laughed and said to him ala post 911….”Ahmed, people fear you more then they fear me”….welcome to America.

349. Rhan Says:
     November 13th, 2009 at 10:06 am

     “Maybe TV, Movie or some negative rumor based on no real world association. The perception is totally based on stereotypical imagery coming from across the globe and especially the U.S.”

     Thanks for the understanding, buddy.

     Hker, I am not from Kuching, Sabah and Sarawak have now become the travel destination for many Hongkeongers bacause of the distance. I think Peninsular is actually much faraway from Borneo Island compare to Hong Kong.

350. pug_ster Says:
     November 15th, 2009 at 5:54 am

     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33936653/ns/world_news-washington_post/

     Here’s another article from msnbc about LJ incident. Of course, you can smell the bias over that.

351. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 15th, 2009 at 6:13 am

     To Pugster:
     umm, what bias? It seems many of the attitudes that were brought forth came from direct quotes from CHinese people themselves. Now, you might suggest that the attitudes offered in the piece may not represent the true spectrum of Chinese racial attitudes towards black people. After all, the author couldn’t interview everybody. You might even speculate that the author didn’t include interviews with people who were less prejudiced, although that would be nothing more than speculation. But where exactly is this bias that you so readily smell?

     It seems “bias” is a word you guys whip out at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I wonder if you guys even know what it means….

352. Jerry Says:
     November 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

     @pug_ster #350, @S.K. Cheung #351

     I read the article. I concur with SK; what bias? Keith B. Richburg is honest and nuanced in his reporting. He directly quotes Chinese people who live in China. And no journalist is under any obligation to be impartial or all-encompassing. Finally, Keith B. Richburg is a black African-American man, who probably knows a thing or two about bias. In the 90’s he reported from Africa for the WaPo. It was an eye-opening experience for him.

     Sometimes I get the impression that the word “bias” is just a bogeyman defense out here at FM. Especially when the article is discussing difficult issues or constructively criticizing China. The “bogeyman defense of bias” is just a way to palliatively dismiss issues/criticism without the benefit of reflection. Think of it as a short-term, ephemeral fix. In life, sooner or later, a person, a society has to face one’s/its ghosts, issues and pain. Or spend the rest of their lives running from them.

353. R Says:
     November 15th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

     Sometimes I get the impression that the word “bias” is just a bogeyman defense out here at FM.

     Absolutely.

     Everyone is biased. I’m biased in favour of democracy and the promotion of human rights. Some people are biased in favour of making lots of money and drinking gallons of champagne every Friday night. The only “unbiased” people are those without opinions, interests or passions – how can anyone like that be a journalist?

354. DK Says:
     November 16th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

     The comments against this girl are appalling, but China should still avoid the mistakes the UK has made by assuming groups will all be interchangeable. Some have much higher crime rates but because of extreme political correctness this can’t be pointed out.

     http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Chinese.pdf

     http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

355. Raj Says:
     November 16th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

     DK

     China should still avoid the mistakes the UK has made by assuming groups will all be interchangeable.

     “Interchangeable” – you mean like swapping body parts a la GI Joe?

     Some have much higher crime rates but because of extreme political correctness this can’t be pointed out.

     Err, are you suggesting some ethnic minorities are more likely to cause crime than others? I certainly hope not, because that’s racist. Crime is normally caused by poverty and a lack of a stable family life.

356. ScrewApologeticLibtards Says:
     November 21st, 2009 at 8:08 pm

     Unfortunately, the baby daddy only reinforces stereotypes of Black men as irresponsible louts by knocking up a married wife – and then leaving her (and her bastard daughter) to clean up the mess.

     Why do these “men” totally not care about BC or any offspring they sire??? This is the real shame underlying this story. Any shame that Lou Jing feels can only pale in comparison to the shame she feels inside from being TOTALLY unwanted, uncared for and unloved by her Black daddy.

     Well, if you don’t love & respect your own daughter, why should you expect anyone else to? 70% of Black babies are now born to single baby mamas in the US. Maybe Americans should be shaming these baby daddies here too?

     It’s only unfortunate that Lou Jing has to take the shame that her daddy & cheating mom deserve.

357. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 22nd, 2009 at 7:10 am

     To S.A.L.:
     a) you’re framing it as though this guy knowingly fathered a child and reneged on his responsibilities. But based on the story, the guy had a 1-niter. I haven’t seen any substantiation anywhere to suggest that he was aware of her pregnancy and subsequent birth of a daughter. Now, you might speculate whether such knowledge would’ve made any difference in his actions. And it very well may not have. But you’re off to the speculation races.

     b) “the baby daddy only reinforces stereotypes of Black men as irresponsible” — oh really? And who might be in possession of such lovely stereotypes? You, perhaps?

     c) “if you don’t love & respect your own daughter, why should you expect anyone else to?” — whoa whoa whoa. Slow down, sunshine. A man not owning up to his paternal responsibilities (assuming he was even aware that he was duty-bound by such) gives carte-blanche for people to hurl racist remarks at this young woman? Not “loving and respecting” someone is a green light for racism?

358. pug_ster Says:
     November 22nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm

     @SKC 357

     First of all, none of it mentions that her mom has a one nighter. Second, I think that SAL did bring up an important point about absent fathers. There’s a saying: It takes a **** to make a baby but it takes a man to be a father. I’m sure that 20 years ago it would be very unlikely for a child to be born with a unwed mother, even worse an absent father. Even if it happens, the father should’ve been asked to shoulder the cost in raising the baby. The father did none of that, instead left to the states. There is racism toward blacks by the Chinese, I’m sure that many Chinese thinks that generally Blacks don’t make good fathers. Based on those statistics and LJ’s experience, I don’t blame them.

359. Steve Says:
     November 22nd, 2009 at 6:17 pm

     #356-358: Based on what I read when I was putting this post together, the African American father left for the States before he was aware of the pregnancy and was never informed it happened. How he would have reacted if he had known is speculation.

     I didn’t read from any sources that it was a one nighter. It might have been; I just don’t know. No time limit for the affair was mentioned. What I did read was that the affair happened when Lou Jing’s mother was engaged, not married. She obviously mislead her future spouse about the nature of her pregnancy until the truth was revealed when the baby was born.

     Regardless of the mistakes, poor choices, immoral behavior… whatever you want to call it, all this happened a very long time ago. Doesn’t anyone forgive anymore? Is it impossible for some people to forgive a person if that person has repented for their mistakes and led a good life from that time onward? If so, who does that reflect on, the person who doesn’t forgive or the person who turned their life around? And what does any of this have to do with the child? Was she responsible for the circumstances of her birth?

     Statistics that apply to African Americans don’t apply to blacks around the world, simply to African Americans. Using those statistics to paint the entire world black population with the same broad brush is a racial stereotype.

360. pug_ster Says:
     November 22nd, 2009 at 7:23 pm

     @Steve,

     I think forgiveness should be earned, not given. There was a picture of LJ and her mother shamelessly standing on the stage and LJ seem to do all the crying of what happened to her life, not her mother. If her mother truly repented, shouldn’t she be doing the talking (and maybe some crying) instead?

361. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 22nd, 2009 at 8:56 pm

     To Pugster:
     “none of it mentions that her mom has a one nighter” — that’s true. But much has been made about how it all went down on her honeymoon. So how many “nighters” do you think they had? Besides, the point is that the biological father was long gone before anybody knew that the mother was pregnant…including the mother herself.

     “the father should’ve been asked to shoulder the cost in raising the baby. The father did none of that, instead left to the states.” — true enough. But we don’t know if the mother ever notified the biological father. So you’re still accusing him of running away from responsibilities about which he may have known nothing. Now, as I suggested to S.A.L., you could speculate on what he may have done had he been made aware of her pregnancy. But all of that would be mere speculation…in hindsight no less.

     “There is racism toward blacks by the Chinese” — i’m glad you at least acknowledge this…
     “I’m sure that many Chinese thinks that generally Blacks don’t make good fathers” — and here’s one good example of same.

     Besides, if any of this line of reasoning is to be used to justify some level of distaste for the biological father, fine. But how does any of this justify any of the vitriol hurled towards the daughter?

     “I think forgiveness should be earned, not given.” — fair enough. But let’s not forget that LJ hadn’t done anything that requires forgiveness, or deserves random racial hatred.

     “There was a picture of LJ and her mother shamelessly standing on the stage and LJ seem to do all the crying of what happened to her life, not her mother. If her mother truly repented, shouldn’t she be doing the talking (and maybe some crying) instead?” — of course, the mother is just as much to blame, if blame is what you would like to allocate, as the long-departed father. Still doesn’t explain, excuse, or justify the racist vitriol that was elicited from some quarters.

362. Steve Says:
     November 23rd, 2009 at 5:08 pm

     @ pug_ster #360: You wrote, “I think forgiveness should be earned, not given.”

     How do you earn forgiveness beyond raising your daughter to be a nice person and good citizen?

     “There was a picture of LJ and her mother shamelessly standing on the stage and LJ seem to do all the crying of what happened to her life, not her mother. If her mother truly repented, shouldn’t she be doing the talking (and maybe some crying) instead?”

     Why do you use the word “shamelessly”? What was shameless about it? Did LJ volunteer the information about her father or was she asked about it by the interviewer? Was LJ being shameless or was the interviewer shameless for asking the question in the first place? How can someone be shameless for answering a question honestly?

     Have you heard the expression “crocodile tears”? Crying or the lack of it proves nothing to me. Some people can cry on command, or as some might say, cry “shamelessly” without meaning anything by it. In LJ’s case, I choose to believe her intentions were honorable. I guess you don’t see it that way so we just disagree on this one.

363. Nunu Says:
     November 24th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

     One interesting thing I have noted is that majority if not all of the attacks come from men. Men who can’t bear the thought of their Chinese women lying with men of any other colour than a fellow Chinese man. Does anyone really know the reason why Lou Jing’s mother cheated? Maybe she abandoned by her Chinese husband, maybe, there was no love left in the marriage. I don’t know and you don’t know her situation. There are so many reasons for extra-marietal affairs, and you know how the saying goes, it takes two to tango, maybe there was some degree of fault on her husband’s side.
     She happened to have met a black man, or she could have actively seeked out someone she found to be ‘exotic’ and ‘exciting’ something seen as a ‘taboo’.
     Lou Jing and her mother went through enough hardships, she never had a father, her mother never had a husband, she had to leave her child to work in a different city. Have they not suffered enough?
     Are you so morally superior that you can judge them? All those men who keep a 2nd wife in another country, is bigamy not worse?
     FYI, this is 2009, not 1800s, we don’t drown unmarried mothers in pig cages anymore. Adultery is hardly a crime.
     Attraction works the same for all human beings, why are Chinese women restricted to Chinese men? I’m Chinese, and I find men of all races attractive, as long as there is a characteristic of theirs that appeals to me.
     Maybe all this hatred is fueled by the Chinese man’s jealousy.

364. pug_ster Says:
     November 24th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

     @Steve,

     I’m talking about LJ’s mother being shameless, not LJ.

     @Nunu,

     It is not about Chinese woman having an affair with a foreign man. If a married Chinese man has a child with another woman I would have the same conmdenation to the man also. Men like John Edwards and Jackie Chan are idiots because they can’t do the responsible thing and use a condom. While Adultery is bad, adultery with kids complicates the picture because there’s responsibility of raising the child. A child born from an irresponsible mother and father, and the child has to suffer. I think the problem is that many here are victimizing the daughter and blaming it on China’s race problem, when Chinese society frowns on divorced/separated-parents.

365. hzzz Says:
     November 24th, 2009 at 9:10 pm

     OMG. I cannot believe this thread has grown this large.

     Rather than accusing each other of racism, can we just all agree that every country has issues with racism?
     Personally I find Asians in general are far more racist towards other Asians. In the US you can easily find Asians who actively avoid or bash other Asians in order to “fit in”. Heck you can find some of them in this thread. But the question is not whether Chinese are racists, which I am sure some are, but should we change this and if so what can we do to change this.

     And yes “blacks” (not all blacks are African Americans) will have to do their part too. When fellow African American Bill Cosby dared to tell his audience that African Americans need to step up and take responsibility for their actions he was bashed as a race traitor.

366. hzzz Says:
     November 24th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

     @Nunu,

     Why single out Chinese men? I have yet to read Chinese men lynching non-Asian men just because the later beds Chinese women. You do read about whites lynching blacks in the US, or muslims men “honor” killing muslim women for just this reason.

367. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 25th, 2009 at 6:04 am

     “Why single out Chinese men?” — maybe because this case occurred in China, and this blog is about China. But you’re right that adultery should be considered wrong in any race, in any country.

368. Wukailong Says:
     November 25th, 2009 at 8:38 am

     @hzzz: “Why single out Chinese men? I have yet to read Chinese men lynching non-Asian men just because the later beds Chinese women. You do read about whites lynching blacks in the US, or muslims men “honor” killing muslim women for just this reason.”

     If the definition of racism is that you have to kill people of other races, then there is hardly racism in China. The problem is that, in that case, racism doesn’t really exist anywhere else either. However, it is not true that there haven’t been targeted violence against blacks in China; I just finished Martin Jacques’ “When China rules the world” (which is very positive towards China) and he has a long list of such incidents. I’ll get back to that later.

369. hzzz Says:
     November 25th, 2009 at 8:38 am

     “maybe because this case occurred in China, and this blog is about China.”

     Okay, self-criticism is fine and all but I just find it ironic that some people are complaining about racism, then goes on off on their own unfair stereotypes (and yes I do it as well occasionally). The finger pointing is rather tiresome and if anything it just proves that humans in general love to discriminate, especially in the name of anti-discrimination.

370. Steve Says:
     November 29th, 2009 at 2:13 am

     A few comments have concerned extramarital affairs in China. I ran across this article today in the China Daily. Here are some excerpts:

     “According to the city’s government-financed support center that targets rising mental health problems in Shenzhen, about one-fifth of its calls are about extramarital affairs – making it the No 1 emotional problem.

     Figures from Kang Le Yuan psychological consultancy, one of the city’s largest organizations for marital relations, showed that about 80 percent of the 6,000 cases it handled last year involved extramarital affairs.

     Zheng said people’s attitudes toward extramarital affairs have changed.

     “Men used to hide their lovers, but now their relations are open Even the security guards know who has a ‘second wife’,” he said.

     Meanwhile, more of the lovers believe it is not wrong to be with a man who claims he no longer loves his wife, he said.

     The private detective, who now positions himself as a “doctor to extramarital affairs”, said a majority of the men with a “second wife” have good educational backgrounds, considerable incomes and have been living in the city for a couple of years.

     They felt spiritually empty while becoming successful and rich and intended to re-experience the passion of love, Zheng said.

     Businessmen, public servants, and banking and IT workers top the list.

     On the other hand, most of the “second wives” who were born in the 1980s are said to have a strong desire for material goods.

     Only some of the women were motivated by love, Zheng said.”

371. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 29th, 2009 at 2:30 am

     Probably not much different the world over. Some percentage of men just can’t keep it in their pants. Moral principles go out the window when their actions are governed by “the little general” rather than the stuff between their ears.

     I wonder if the people who call the support centers are the men who’ve strayed (out of guilt), or the women they’ve betrayed (out of despair). The presumption is much more clear as to who is hiring the PI’s.

     Doesn’t say much about the 20-something women who are out looking for sugar daddy’s. Also doesn’t say much about the men who cheat to begin with, and who would be attracted to such shallow women besides.

     Do you know how many of the cheaters are women? Any idea what the divorce rate is in China these days, or do the women just grin and bear it?

372. Wukailong Says:
     November 30th, 2009 at 3:11 am

     I’ve tried to find out statistics for divorce, but the numbers are differing a lot. According to this Baidu answer, the number was over 15% nationwide in 2003:

     http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/79848304.html?fr=qrl&cid=207&index=1&fr2=query

     According to this international comparison, though, it hadn’t even reached one percent in 2002 yet (though these are based on new marriages):

     http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

     Then there are these claims on Huanqiu saying that Beijing has a divorce rate of 39%, with cities such as Shanghai and Shenzhen on second and third positions, respectively (this doesn’t necessarily contradict any of the other statistics, it’s just a bit hard to believe that the rates would be so high):

     http://finance.huanqiu.com/pictures/2009-09/579267_3.html

     I can’t say for sure. This whole question reminds me of an experience of a Chinese friend of mine, who went to register with his wife at a local marriage registration office. It turned out that the marriage line and the divorce line was in the same room, so the ambience was kind of weird: one line with excited people next to a line of dejected and depressed couples.

373. Rhan Says:
     November 30th, 2009 at 4:09 am

     “one line with excited people next to a line of dejected and depressed couples.”
     Which line is excited and which line is depress? Does the East and West share the same sentiment by looking at today values system?

374. S.K. Cheung Says:
     November 30th, 2009 at 4:43 am

     To Rhan,
     hopefully both “easterners” and “westerners” can agree that it makes sense to be excited about getting married, and that it is quite understandable to be dejected and depressed if you’re getting divorced. However, there is a Cantonese riff of the wedding march song (ie. here comes the bride….) where the first two lines have been replaced with “what a sucker, henceforth trapped forever…. — admittedly the jingle sounds better in Cantonese. So maybe some people do find marriage depressing.

     To WKL:
     thanks for that. Those are some wild stats…I agree they almost defy belief.

375. Wukailong Says:
     November 30th, 2009 at 6:48 am

     @Rhan: I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, but from what I remember this friend of mine omitted the detail as to what line contained excited people and which one didn’t. I assume that most people getting married are excited if it’s of their own free will. Nothing I’ve seen in all my years in China have made me think Eastern people are of a different mindset in this regard.

376. tanjin Says:
     December 14th, 2009 at 8:58 am

     An article on GlobalTimes, visiting many who have been living inside China ..

     “Are foreigners discriminated against in China?

     Elliott Bernstein, an American resident director of Special Programs for CET Academic Programs in Beijing The American idea of “racial discrimination” is not perfectly applicable in China.

     Chinese people might have certain ideas about different races, and they will talk about those stereotypes.

     However, since there aren’t large groups of those people here, it’s less frequent for real racial discrimination to occur in the same ways as it does in more ethnically diverse societies like the US.

     Still, Americans often feel like there’s a lot of racism in China.

     That’s in part because it’s easy for Americans to confuse stereotyping with discrimination.
     Each issue has its own problems, and they’re often closely connected, but they are basically distinct from one another.

     The main difference, as I see it, is whether or not action is taken.

     If a person believes certain things about people of different races but acts the same toward everyone, it’s only stereotyping.

     However, when they treat people differently because of those beliefs, that’s discrimination.

     According to my observation, there’s a lot of both so called positive stereotyping and negative stereotyping in China.”

377. pug_ster Says:
     December 14th, 2009 at 9:58 pm

     http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/chinas-changing-views-on-race/

     Interesting blog about racism in China…

378. dewang Says:
     December 15th, 2009 at 12:37 am

     Thx for the link, pug_ster, #377. Nice to see some mature and grown up take on this issue.

379. S.K. Cheung Says:
     December 15th, 2009 at 3:44 am

     To Pugster:
     thanks for the link. Mr. Hung’s and Ms. Blachford’s pieces particularly resonate.

     To Tanjin:
     “since there aren’t large groups of those people here, it’s less frequent for real racial discrimination to occur in the same ways as it does in more ethnically diverse societies like the US.” — which is why it’s been said many a time that the capacity for racism is present in Chinese as it is in other people, but the prevalence is relatively muted simply because the opportunity to express said racism does not present itself often in China (yet). But when given the opportunity, as demonstrated by the subject of this thread, it is no less real than it is anywhere else.

     “person believes certain things about people of different races but acts the same toward everyone, it’s only stereotyping.” — that’s quite the individual whose racist thoughts can be completely barred from manifesting themselves in the form of racist actions. I wonder what Bernstein thinks is the ratio of those who purely “stereotype” vs those who “discriminate”, using his own definitions.

380. hzzz Says:
     December 15th, 2009 at 10:18 pm

     @377 Pugster

     I have read through most of the comments on the NYT blog and some of them are quite interesting. The loudest complaints about racism seem to come from caucasian english teachers in China, while you also get a few posts from actual African Americans who wrote that they were treated like celebrities and saw little racism when they were in China.

     There is one comment which resonated with me, where this guy was saying that sure there is initial discrimination against people of darker skin in China but unlike elsewhere the Chinese are quick to talk about merits and very quickly accomplishments in life are valued a lot more than the skin color. My view on the Chinese society in general is that it’s a lot more classist than racist. Basically, if you have more money you are good, if not you are bad or must have done something wrong. I am sure the color of skin creates an initial reaction but it goes out of the window rather quickly. This of course, drive the Chinese people towards excessive materialism but at the same time make them good/ruthless business people.

381. Rochelle Says:
     December 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 pm

     This needed to happen. The world really needed to see the real China. And yet we have embraced the Chinese infiltration in the U.S. Everything we purchase and turn over, reads, ‘made in China’ . Tell Lou Jing the United States of ‘China’ will accept her. She will not feel alone nor left out. She can be both black and chinese easily in America.

382. colin Says:
     December 23rd, 2009 at 10:01 pm

     “This needed to happen. The world really needed to see the real China. And yet we have embraced the Chinese infiltration in the U.S. Everything we purchase and turn over, reads, ‘made in China’ . Tell Lou Jing the United States of ‘China’ will accept her. She will not feel alone nor left out. She can be both black and chinese easily in America.”

     Get off your arrogant high horse.

     http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&cf=all&ncl=dSx4zQxh0cakRAM8LBKqAbkObuFxM

     The day after 30 Asian students were attacked by a group of mostly African American classmates at South Philadelphia …

383. Charles Liu Says:
     December 23rd, 2009 at 10:19 pm

     Rochelle @ 308, “The world really needed to see the real China.”

     It appears your comment prove my point that these completely one-sided, cherry-picked quotes have misled people to conclude what the “real China” is. Sadly all the positive comments supportive of Lou Jin, and majority of Chinese netters who are against racism, are hidden from you in order to indoctrinate you with this anti-Chinese POV.

     Just so you know, these comments about Lou Jin surfaced at the same time, some are even next to the racist comment, but are ignored IMHO on purpose:

     “洪晃：我们凭什么歧视混血女孩娄婧” – “Hong Guan: what right do we have to discriminate against mixed blood girl Lou Jin”

     “娄婧没有错，对娄母也应多宽容” – “Lou Jing is blameless, her mother deserves understanding too”

     “看中国男人怎对娄婧母女发邪火” – “observing Chinese male-chovanism againt Lou mother-daughter”

     “娄婧的呼声感人肺腑” – “Lou Jing’s appeal [to find father] moved me to the core”

     “娄婧天使舞台证明自己和大家一样” – “Lou Jing’s stage presence proves she is the same as everyone”

     “并不是因为她有着奥斯卡影后上海“哈利贝瑞”的称号。而是娄婧切身的故事” – “not because she resembles Halle Barry, but because of her life story”

     “不要去歧视外地的，大家都是平等的” – don’t discriminate against outsiders, everyone is equal

     “小黑是无辜的” – Little Black [Lou Jing’s nickname] is innocent

     “这个小姑娘是无辜的，大家积点口德” – the little lady is innocent, everyone watch what they’re saying

     “我觉得这个母亲还是很伟大的” – I feel Mother Lou is quite admirable

     “小孩很可怜从小被歧视” – poor girl’s been discriminated since little

     “以后碰到你身上 你还能噶笃定” – wait til it happens to you, will you be so self righteous

     “单身母亲还是要理解的” – single mothers need understanding

     “小孩没什么错,大家别这么刻薄” – kids are never wrong, everyone stop being so harsh

     “大家不用这么说人家小姑娘吧” – people, there’s no need to talk about her like this

     “怎么说她也是讲上海话的土生土长的上海人” – no matter what, she is a local born and raised shanghainese

     “何必要这么搞臭人家呢” – why poopoo others like this?

     “勿以肤色论英雄” – Shouldn’t judge by skin color

     ”“黑珍珠”娄婧证明自我” – “black pearl” Lou Jing proves self-worth

     “娄婧比模特儿更美” – Lou Jing is more beautiful than models

     “大家多谅解她吧” – people should cut her some slack

     “娄婧是个小天使，这与她的肤色无关” – Lou Jing is an angel, matters not what skin color

     “黑色只是普通的肤色” – Black is but a normal skin color

384. David Says:
     December 28th, 2009 at 6:32 am

     Hi

     I am David a White American working in Shanghai from US company, as my experience living in Shanghai as a white guy its really like a king for the shanghai Chinese girls doesn’t matter what age it is, whenever I want I can sleep with the girls every other night. Now I would like to give some comments on Lou Jings situation:

     This comments from my five years experience in China:

     a) Chinese are not upto that stage to bring racism, as Chinese are still not as beautiful as international standard because of their long body short legs and flat face structure.
     b) Chinese Man specially the most ugliest man even in the world so they should not criticize others.
     c) This situation to Lou Jings tells that Chinese still very much uncivilized far behind from modernization in their characters, as we even see in our daily life that people doesn’t know yet what call decency even in street, or in shopping mall or even supper market, this people are still uncultured and illiterate, so how we expect they will behave like a good citizen to respect Lou Jings talent.
     d) Chinese are the most opportunist in the world when they were under white rule they clamed as yellow not black , when they are under black rule they clam as they are black not white in South Africa – what a shame of this people,
     e) Lou Jings is a nice girl even much beautiful then many flat face short legs girls around, and she is not easy to use every other night,
     f) Lou Jings father is a black American, remember he is an American not Chinese, even for Black American Chinese are crazy for every other night, so please stop criticizing,
     g) Please criticize some one when you see you are standing in strong position , don’t criticize when even you don’t have ball to criticize.
     h) Eventually try to learn from West good part of our culture rather giving yourself to us because of we are from west. Lou Jing is nice and beautiful girls she doesn’t deserve to stay in this dirty jangle where civilization is kind of dream.

385. Steve Says:
     December 28th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

     Well, David or whatever your actual name is, first of all you’re a liar since your IP address says you’re from Beijing. Second, you’re a liar because if you were a white American, you’d have a better command of the English language.

     I was actually a white American working in Shanghai for a multinational with headquarters in Silicon Valley. Your representation of Shanghai girls is stereotypical nonsense but I’m not surprised since you’re not from there.

     I’ve also met plenty of people throughout the world who think many Chinese women are very beautiful. Long torso and short legs are common with Japanese women, not Chinese women so your eyesight must be a little off. Chinese men, like men everywhere, run the gamut from handsome to ugly. They’re no different from any other race. Seems like you are neither American nor Chinese, unless you just so happen to be an abnormally ugly Chinese guy with a self-image problem.

     Every Chinese person I’ve ever met said they were yellow, though many were whiter than I am. Seems like you’re just making stuff up.

     My guess is that you have absolutely no luck with women of any race, based on what you’ve written. Rather than comment on forums like this, why don’t you seek professional help? You definitely need it.

386. Sam Says:
     January 7th, 2010 at 11:59 am

     Wow I’m not Chinese and I feel bad for the Chinese to have to put up with all this Lou Jin hoopla. It’s all over the net, unending. People sure try to demonize China every chance they get, don’t they? So what’s the fascination? It’s not like this chick looks remotely good like Beyonce or anything. Even if, she’s really non-news considering the amount of racism that takes place in pretty much every part of the world. In fact by comparison, all of this attention is plain silly. I’ve been to Korea and India, and believe me, you don’t want to be born black over there.

     That said, now I’m going to be unPC and to hell with it. Does anyone else think she looks just plain strange and out of place? As if someone painted her with brown paint or mud from head to toe but somehow didn’t do quite an even job with it ? I’m sitting here starring at that picture, just itching to get the soap and water….

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