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Jan 01

The Mystical Gaza Chinese Rocket

Written by guest on Thursday, January 1st, 2009 at 4:01 pm
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While it is widely reported that Hamas have fired 122mm Grad rockets into Israel, an upgrade from the Qassam, few media have gone further and stated that the new rockets were Chinese-made.

Simple Google searches seem to suggest the reason very few media outlets have made the Chinese connection is because this is somewhat dubious:

– According to Wikipedia the Soviet designed Grad rockts have been profliferated to over 50 counntries, with over a dozon countries manufacturing them.

– None of China’s 122mm Grad rockets were ever exported according to SinoDefense.com: 1) Type 81-90 rockets were never successfuly exported and was decommissioned in the 1990’s; 2) Closest spec’ed WS rocket, WS-1E, never entered production.

So it is a mystery how did Hamas ever get their hands on supposed Chinese-made rocked when it doesn’t exist.


There are currently 3 comments highlighted: 24516, 24582, 24897.

55 Responses to “The Mystical Gaza Chinese Rocket”

  1. FOARP Says:

    The AP and Jerusalem Post reports both say that Israeli defence officials are making the claim. It is therefore not the media outlets themselves who are making the claim, but Israeli officials – this is quite a difference. As to their reasons for doing so, all I have is conjecture:

    1) Israeli officers famously labelled a Japanese sponsored farm “Chinese farm”, because they could not tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese writing. It could well be that a similar mistake between Chinese and North Korean markings has taken place.

    2) We have no knowledge of the degree to which Chinese weapons are sold to North Korea or Iran, nor can any source authoritatively tell us. Apologies to Sinodefence, but these things are state secrets in China, the government announces them some of the time, but we do not know if it does so all of the time. I cannot believe that China would directly support Hamas, an islamist movement, but they do sell weapons to Iran, and Iran does support Hamas. North Korea do not care who they sell weapons to, and even if the Chinese sought to prevent the North Koreans selling Chinese weapons, they could not entirely prevent them from doing so.

    3) The rockets could be cheap copies, the Grad system is exceedingly basic, and a simple household toolshop might suffice, given the correct materials, to manufacture Grad rockets in small amounts. If copied from Chinese designs, perhaps using an original mould, they would bear the original markings.

    4) Large shipments of weapons were sent overseas by China during the sixties and seventies to support various regimes and revolutionary movements, these continue to turn up in the strangest places. However, since the earliest Chinese models of the Grad system appear to have been copied from a system captured from the Vietnamese in 1979 this seems to be dubious, but Grad was not the first multiple rocket launching system, so perhaps they have mistaken Katyusha rockets for Grad.

    5) ‘Chinese’ AKs and RPGs are widely available for purchase in Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia as well as other war zones. These weapons usually sell for half the price of Russian-manufactured weapons, as these are seen as more reliable. Nobody knows when (or really, where) these weapons were made, the people who buy and sell these things may well just be saying ‘Chinese’ when the weapons actually came from Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia or where ever. Or they may actually be Chinese. They may even be of local manufacture, made using Chinese moulds, or simply moulds with an Asian language which they cannot recognise. It would not be that strange if Grad rockets were sold by people similar to those selling ‘Chinese’ small arms.

    6) Corrupt PLA officers may have sold the weapons, this is not nearly as an unlikely as it should be.

    7) Grad rockets may have been found alongside Chinese-made Katyushas.

    8 ) Disinformation on the part of Hamas.

    9) Disinformation on the part of the Israelis.

    On the wider question of whole point of this conflict, all I can say is that as someone sympathetic to the Israelis and their plight as a sole democratic society surrounded by militaristic dictatorships. I know Israelis, have Israeli friends, but I have never even met a Palestinian, let alone spoken to one, but even I think that bombing buildings with hundreds of innocent men, women, and children in them to kill a single Hamas official is no way for any country that wishes to be known as ‘civilised’ to behave. Such a bombardment might be excusable if it led to an end to Hamas attacks on Israel and thus save innocent Israeli lives, but we all know that it will not. Andrew Sullivan’s blog has a good summing up of blog reactions to the airstrikes, here are two quotes which he carried that I thought particularly good:

    (Freddie DeBoer)

    I know this with a certainty that I feel in my heart and my bones: if you support this assault, and justify its collateral damage, but will not come out and state the actual logical conclusion of what you are saying– that you justify the killing of innocent Palestinian children– then you are an intellectual coward, in the most damning and complete sense. If you justify the attack and its collateral damage you justify the consequences. So all of you, have the courage to stand for what you mean. Have the basic integrity to stand behind what you are saying. Look me in my face, so to speak, and tell me about the justice of another dead Palestinian child.

    (Dion Nissenbaum)

    Reporters from every major news organization, from the BBC and CNN to The New York Times and The Washington Post to NPR and McClatchy to AP and Fox News, are being barred by Israel from going into Gaza to cover the deadliest military campaign there since Israel seized the area from Egypt in the 1967 war.

    The Foreign Press Association, of which McClatchy is a part, has called the Israeli closure “insufferable” and asked the Israeli Supreme Court to take immediate action to lift the ban.

    The second quote demonstrates a feature of abuses against human rights that has become all too familiar.

  2. BMY Says:

    It dosen’t mean anything if there are Chinese rockets and FOARP has explained well.
    Everyone knows there are US and Israel made bullets and machine guns on the hands of Palestinian gun men.

  3. BMY Says:

    @FOARP,

    I am glad to see those rights activists of protesting the murdering IDF but I also wish to see they could protest in front of Hamas HQ after a packed bus or restaurant got blew up.

  4. pug_ster Says:

    @FOARP,

    Yeah, I heard in the news that these rockets are Chinese made. They have no proof that it actually come from China and they never claimed that China has sold these rockets directly. Compared to the smart bombs that the Israeli’s use, the bombs that Hamas use are relatively low tech.

  5. Steve Says:

    @ pug_ster: Does Israel really use smart bombs? I was wondering about that when I read the news releases. I didn’t know how restricted that technology was…

  6. Old Tales Retold Says:

    @ BMY,

    I agree that the murder of civilians should be condemned in any context. But it is inaccurate to imply that human rights groups haven’t ever criticized Palestinian groups (though protesting outside the offices of Hamas or Islamic Jihad is difficult when Israel denies to visas to activists!).

    Human Rights Watch, for example, received considerable criticism itself in 2006 when it condemned the use of Palestinian civilians to protect the intended target of an Israeli attack (see http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6150.shtml). HRW had to backtrack slightly in that instance—rightly, as far as I’m concerned. Amnesty International also famously denounced Palestinian suicide bombings as “crimes against humanity” (see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/amnesty-denounces-palestinian-suicide-bombings-as-crimes-against-humanity-648051.html).

    Perhaps activists have focused more on Israel than on Palestine because the human rights community is more comfortable targeting state actors rather than non-state actors, as the responsibilities of states are clearer than the responsibilities of rebels under international law and because human rights groups are simply more comfortable running letter writing campaigns, etc. against high-profile officials. But I think the main reason for HRW or Amnesty’s heightened criticism of Israel is the most obvious one: Israel is the main offender in the conflict.

    As in other occupations—France in Algeria or Vietnam, the U.S. in Iraq, Britain in Kenya and elsewhere, India in Kashmir, Turkey in Kurdistan, and, to some degree, China in Tibet—resistance to the occupation can sometimes turn ugly. But the occupier maintains a constant, low level of coercion that far outweighs the violence of the occupied. And the moral burden, I believe, is always on the occupier first and foremost.

    If you take a snapshot of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at any moment, the Palestinian death toll is always higher than the Israeli death toll, whether counted in total or narrowly focused on civilians.

  7. vmoore55 Says:

    China has made rockets for thousands of years and if anyone can’t make one now a days than they don’t have a good edumacation.

    But China does make really good fake and cheap rockets, just point and fire away.

  8. facts Says:

    To a layman in the West or anywhere outside China, all he/she knows is that somewhat China is involved in the killings. That’s the message, anywhere there is killing, the evil China is involved. That’s Western propaganda at best, Is the West implicated in the killings of civilians? Look China is again involved too. Any where there is a conflict, China’s role should be mentioned in the Western media. China is associated with anything evil. That’s the art of spinning day in and day out, Wheather it’s based on facts is not important, important is to mention the name China, Hack there could even be a correction at some point buried in the 10th page to show how unbiased the Western media are, but outside general public, who would even know the correction exists, only those intented to defend the fairness of free press.

  9. hainan88 Says:

    facts u r right, western media just try 2 demonize china but without effect… in 18th century with opium war ,now with so-called “freedom of the press” and “democracy”, their methods are endless, they will not stop at total splitting of our mother country…

    Zhonguo jiayou! don’t be too cnn

    every day just lies lies lies from western media. if we love our country we must stop this deluge… western governments just allow this because it servers their interest… otherwise the free tibet suckers would all be in guantanomo haha!!

  10. hainan88 Says:

    Old Tales Retold (western lies retold??): u say that american human rights watch also criticize palestian organization, but why not criticize israel? is it because it receives grants from us and is greatest “democracy” and “human rights” watcher? your links are trash for western “human right” flunkies who just follow your government and western media propaganda…

    tibet was liberated by china and has always been part of our country. only western propaganda talks about “occupation”. why not try to clean up your own nazi past and stop whining about chinese politics??

  11. BMY Says:

    @OTR,

    Thanks for your comment and the links. I don’t take side. It might be just there were not much reprots on the media of avtivists criticizing Palestinian groups and also the reason you explained so I didn’t see many protests of Palestinian groups.

  12. Eason Says:

    I don’t think Chinese government is so naive to support Hamas, because China will not be benefited from this behavior. And most of Chinese people endorse the invasion of Israel in Gaza, though it will inevitably hurt civilian in this area.
    Hamas is a terrorism group. So appeal to cease fire is the only thing that chinese government may do.

  13. FOARP Says:

    Great to see the Anti-CNN crew riffing on this. One problem: it’s the Israeli government that made the claim, not the newsmedia. Another problem: your all barmy. No western crticism of Israel? You guys really do need your heads examining, because the newspapers and television have been full of it 24/7 here in the UK. A Times editorial labelled the attacks “stupid” and “wrong”, the Guardian also ran critical editorials, Channel 4 news ran a 15 minute long segment on a Palestinian boy who was killed by an Israeli missile and then questioned a member of the Israeli government over and over about his death (which the guy claimed not know anything about). All foreign media has criticised the Israeli government from the start for refusing them access to the Gaza strip – just like China’s Communist government refused foreign journalists access to Tibet. The organisations that are often labelled western puppets have all been critical of the Israeli attacks. Here’s what Amnesty UK had to say:

    “AIUK has called on the UK Government to stress to the Israeli Government to bear in mind that there are no ‘safe’ places in Gaza for civilians to seek shelter. They know how densely populated the Jabalia Refugee Camp is and that the homes are mostly light structures with flimsy asbestos roofs and not able to withstand the effect of strikes. Strikes are virtually sure to kill and injure civilians and we have made it clear that it’s important the UK Government stresses this and urge the Israeli Government that they must not carry out attacks which pose a disproportionate risk to civilians. “

    Here Reporters Without Borders:

    “Reporters Without Borders condemned the bombing of Al-Aqsa TV as a “flagrant violation of humanitarian law” in a letter today to Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak. “The television station’s use as a propaganda outlet by Hamas does not make it a legitimate military target,” the letter said.

    “If the State of Israel openly legitimises military attacks on news media, even propaganda media, this should be clearly and officially expressed and established by the civilian authorities so that everyone knows that they dispute that international humanitarian law applies to the conflicts in which they are involved,” the letter added.

    Reporters Without Borders also deplores Israel’s decision to deny the international media access to the Gaza Strip by declaring it a “closed military zone.” Closed since November, the Erez border crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip was reopened for a few hours before the start of the offensive only to be closed again.

    Here’s Human Rights Watch:

    “”An Israeli ground operation in Gaza will likely mean intense combat in densely populated areas, where the threat to civilians is substantial,” said Joe Stork, deputy director of Human Rights Watch’s Middle East and North Africa division. “The IDF and Hamas must take concrete steps to minimize the fighting’s impact on civilians or the results could be catastrophic.”

    The IDF’s last major ground operation in Gaza, from February 27 to March 3, 2008, killed 107 Palestinians, more than half of whom were civilians, and wounded more than 200. Two Israeli soldiers died.

    Human Rights Watch’s detailed field investigation of that operation found serious violations by the IDF, including the killing of a wounded man getting treatment in an ambulance, the shooting deaths of two civilians on donkey carts, and the shooting and wounding of two men in IDF custody. In two cases, tank crews opened fire on unarmed civilians. All of these incidents took place in an area that was firmly under the control of the IDF. Palestinian medics and ambulance drivers also faced restrictions on their ability to treat the wounded and dead – both civilians and combatants – and came under fire that killed one medic.

    In February-March 2008, as on other occasions, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups placed civilians at risk by firing rockets and mortars from densely populated areas and storing weapons in civilian structures. Those acts, too, violate the laws of war.

    Human Rights Watch said that during past hostilities both sides have failed to take adequate steps to remove civilians from areas where there was fighting, putting them at unnecessary risk. A senior IDF legal advisor recently told Human Rights Watch that it is still standard procedure for IDF troops to detain civilians in houses in which the IDF deploys, thus exposing them to danger of attacks from Palestinian forces.

    Past IDF ground operations raise additional concerns. Human Rights Watch’s on-the-ground investigation of the April 2002 IDF ground operation in Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank found that at least 22 of the 52 Palestinians killed were civilians, including some as the result of unlawful or willful killings by the IDF (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502.pdf ). The IDF used armored bulldozers to demolish residents’ homes to clear the way for armored vehicles, but in some cases the destruction extended well beyond any conceivable military objective. The IDF blocked the passage of medical personnel and vehicles into Jenin refugee camp for 11 days, and IDF soldiers repeatedly fired on ambulances.

    During Jenin and other ground operations, Israeli soldiers have at times forced civilians, sometimes at gunpoint, to accompany IDF troops during their searches of homes, forcing them to open doors and perform other dangerous tasks in violation of the laws of war. A 2005 Israeli Supreme Court ruling banned this practice.

    A central problem has been the lack of accountability for past violations of the laws of war, Human Rights Watch said. The IDF told Human Rights Watch that it had not opened any investigations into potentially unlawful deaths from the March 2008 Gaza operations, called Operation Warm Winter, although it was investigating three reported cases of theft by Israeli soldiers. Similarly, Hamas has done nothing to hold accountable those who have deliberately and unlawfully fired rockets into, or from, civilian areas.

    “Failing to punish soldiers for serious abuses sends a terrible message to those fighting in Gaza that future abuses too will be ignored,” said Stork.

    More than 400 Palestinians in Gaza have died in fighting over the past week. According to the United Nations, about one-quarter of them are civilians. Palestinian rocket fire has killed three Israeli civilians in the same period.

    The Israeli embassy in London has already been the site of daily demonstrations attended by thousands of people, the same is the case in many other western capitals. So really, what the hell are you talking about?

    The only thing I can conclude is that ‘facts’ and Hainan88 don’t actually bother to read the western media or actually listen to what human rights organisations say. Perhaps we should take the same attitude towards their startlingly uninformed and delusional opinions.

  14. Wukailong Says:

    @FOARP: “No western crticism of Israel? You guys really do need your heads examining, because the newspapers and television have been full of it 24/7 here in the UK.”

    I read something similar in a Chinese book (that there is no criticism of Israel in the Western media). The author almost exclusively relied on US sources, of course. The West = US in the minds of most Chinese nationalists, a fact of life we’ll just have to accept, it seems…

  15. Charles Liu Says:

    Wukailong, it’s somewhat nuianced. For example our government have consistently taken side with the Isralis (largely due to America’s collective guilt over our anti-semetic history, and the efforts of the AIPAC) and Israel have consistently topped the list of US foreign (military and economic) aid.

    HRW will never scream as loud about Israel as they do with China, and Western governments will never impose the kind of sanction they impose on China.

  16. Steve Says:

    @ Charles Liu #15:

    “…largely due to America’s collective guilt over our anti-semetic history”

    Charles, I have no idea what you are talking about. Americans don’t feel any guilt over anti-semitic history, and every Jewish person I’ve ever met feels the States are the best place to be in the entire world if you’re Jewish. My brother in law’s family was originally from Poland. Most of them were wiped out in Auschwitz during the war. To them, America is wonderful.

    Aid to Israel is mostly because they have a great lobby and powerful voting blocks in New York, Florida and Illinois. But you also have to consider that many Americans truly support Israel as a country, for a variety of reasons.

    Personally, my feelings about the situation over there are similar to Jerry’s. I think both sides have behaved poorly and can be criticized extensively. Just when I start to feel sympathy for one side or the other, they do something stupid that causes me to throw my hands up in disgust.

    Comparing Israel to China is an apple/orange comparison. You or I might not agree with the reasons for US sanctions against China in certain areas, but those reasons do exist. To ignore them makes for a weak argument.

  17. William Huang Says:

    @ facts #8
    @ hainan88 #9

    I am Chinese and I love my country. However, if we want to be great and stand up in the world, we should have ability to take criticism like everyone else. Of course, there are some people who have hidden agenda. However, many westerners in FM blog have shown genuine interest in China’s affair and as far as I can see, many of them are very knowledgeable and sincere for serious discussion. They come from different countries and may or may not share the same view with us but it does not mean they have bad intention. I am not sure to label everything that we don’t see eye to eye as propaganda is a way to resolve the differences and win friends.

    If what China has achieved in the past 20 years is not because we are the victim of western power, why should we be the victim now? Like everyone else, China has its own problems and mistakes. It’s healthy to hear different views and opinions and it will only make us better.

    As my personal opinion, I don’t anything particularly wrong with FOARP #1 post but I have to respect yours.

  18. facts Says:

    @William Huang
    I totally disagree. FOARP went technical on the reporting of this issue to rationalize the piece, but many things can be technically correct yet with the intention to harm. In those reportings, what are the names of the officers media quoted? what are the physical evidence of such allegation? Both are very vague, that tells you something already, this is called smearing. Promoting and spreading unsubstantiated rumors to demonize China. This is not criticism, what constructive purpose does this report provide? None! Such report has only one goal, vilify and demonize the name China. That’s how the Western media made an art out of propaganda, technically flawless, but the public got the message. The reporting on Tibet riots was quite a disappointment, Western media, with uncontainable excitement, went bare knuckle. Free press bankrupted its credibility among the Chinese people, but the Western public still swallowed most of the lie—China cracked down in Tibet, blah blah

    On issue of Reporters without borders. Here is another one of those propaganda tricks. The RWB is just a component of Western propaganda, it works with the Western press together. It will condemn Israel just as China, so it is shield from double standard. But the Western press ignores or only gives token presentation of RBW’s view on Gaza incident. But when it comes to Tibet, AP/CNN/FOXnews/Rueters/AFP go crazy quoting RBW “reports,” and RBW will be crazy churning out “reports” and giving press briefings etc…

    Again the game is to ensure the rightness in technicality, while achieving the goal of propaganda. That’s one way to sum up the Western media.

    On the issue of victimization. This is another Western construct to shut up the oppressed multitudes. Basically the rapist is accusing the rape victim for complaining about the crime. That is indeed adding insults to injury. Now when comes to China, China was a victim of Western aggression before 1949, nobody can take away China’s right to voice its grievances. That is not the issue here, since after 1949, PRC vigorously defended Chinese sovereignty, China is no longer a victim of Western aggression. What me and other like minded Chinese doing here is to be vigilant to Western aggression of propaganda.

    The West has no interest of making friends with China, since the West does not accept at a fundamental level the legitimacy of Chinese government and institutions. That’s why the West uses the propaganda machine to demonize and deny the legitimacy of Chinese gov. and the Chinese nation. We should be here to point out the twisting of truth, the white lies, the spinning as they have been deployed in Western propaganda campaign against China.

  19. Mehdi Says:

    Human Rights Watch worried about its Pro-Israel Donors
    Insider in Human Rights Watch is reporting to me that discussions are being held at the HIGHEST LEVEL on how to report on the Israeli attacks on Gaza without displeasing the Pro-Israeli donors. I kid you not.
    from: angryarab.blogspot.com

  20. FOARP Says:

    @Mehdi – I can well believe it. There are those who do not like to hear even the slightest negative thing about the country which they identify with, as is obvious from one glance at Chinese nationalist websites like Anti-CNN (and more obvious when you attempt to make a comment on it which they don’t like).

    @’Facts’ – It does not matter how often you repeat the phrase ‘western propaganda’, all of them quote Israeli defence officials as making the claim. Is the claim ‘impossible?’ Not at all, Chinese weapons show up all over the globe, as do Russian, German, British, French and American ones – but Chinese and Russian weapons are most favoured and easily available, for the reasons set out above. No one is making the claim that the rockets are being directly sold to Hamas by China.

    “This is not criticism, what constructive purpose does this report provide?”

    It tells you what kind of weapons are being used, what their range is, what their provenance is, how reliable they are likely to be etc. etc. etc. No criticism is implied above and beyond the obvious availability of Russian/Chinese manufactured weapons as compared to those of other countries.

    On the issue of victimization. This is another Western construct to shut up the oppressed multitudes. Basically the rapist is accusing the rape victim for complaining about the crime. That is indeed adding insults to injury. Now when comes to China, China was a victim of Western aggression before 1949, nobody can take away China’s right to voice its grievances. That is not the issue here, since after 1949, PRC vigorously defended Chinese sovereignty, China is no longer a victim of Western aggression. What me and other like minded Chinese doing here is to be vigilant to Western aggression of propaganda.

    You do not actually appear to have an argument here. You just seem to wish to assert things you like to think of as true, even if they are totally unconnected to the matter at hand. You seem to have an almost fetishistic attachment to words like “sovereignty”, “aggression”, “propaganda”, and wish to use them even where they have no real meaning.

    Essentially your argument is circular: The western media is a propaganda machine because it reports things about China which are bad and the fact that these things are reported are disadvantageous to China so it must be a propaganda machine – at no point does you argument make touch with reality.

    Please, go see a shrink.

  21. Tu Quoque Says:

    @Mehdi “Human Rights Watch worried about its Pro-Israel Donors”

    Agreed. Money talks…

    Agrees, and Well said, William Huang, “I am Chinese and I love my country…we should have ability to take criticism like everyone else. Of course, there are some people who have hidden agenda. ”

    facts is not all wrong, and he is certainly right about the name-calling FOARP re: “the names of the officers media quoted? what are the physical evidence of such allegation? Both are very vague, that tells you something already, this is called smearing. Promoting and spreading unsubstantiated rumors to demonize China. ” Sock it to them, facts.

    A few more things. I agree more with facts & disagree with FOARP who writes, “You [facts] do not actually appear to have an argument here,” “totally unconnected, ” “fetishistic attachment to words,” and “wish to use them even where they have no real meaning.”
    Wow, Geeze, how full of himself. Hey, how about sharing your POVs by providing proof instead of using stinky smearing tricks and relying on character assassination tactics.

    “There are those who do not like to hear even the slightest negative thing” writes FOARP, the master of duplicity hisself. Here again, he says,”You guys really do need your heads examining, ” You ought to be the first Mr. FEAR Of A Red Planet…Finally, FOARP: “Please, go see a shrink.” Again, please use your own advise first.

    WKL: “The West = US in the minds of most Chinese nationalists, a fact of life we’ll just have to accept, it seems” What, accept a lie? What utter crap! For weeks we’ve been having a go at France right here on FM…it’s just that the US of A is the world’s biggest deadly bully with the loudest mouth, ergo…

  22. FOARP Says:

    @Tu Quoque – Its so good that we have you here to speak for Charlie-boy – do you two know each other?

  23. Tu Quoque Says:

    # 15 “…largely due to America’s collective guilt over our anti-semetic history…..our [USA] government have consistently taken side with the Isralis…”

    I don’t think this is true..corporate America is all about power & money. It is in America where the enterprising Jews can finally flourish and prosper, even to the point of having this ridiculous Anti-semetic law passed. So as Steve says above, America is the best thing/place for the people of Jewish descendants. With a lot of money coming from the American Christians fundamentalists believing that the Jews are the chosen people of God and all that Zionist prophetic scanario of the ressurrection of Israel as a nation and the re-building of the Temple of Solomon as conditions set by heaven for the Second Coming of Christ –

    Other than their constant USUAL complains of everyone and everything, I would often get an ear load from non-believing, clearer headed Europeans, Americans or even Jewish Americans like Jerry outside of US say less complimentary things about the Jews of usury, that they perhaps wouldn’t say in America.

    To be fair, Not all Jews are pro-Israel Zionists, just as not all Jews are Jewish in cultural, business practice or religious beliefs. There are secular-Jews and even more bizzarely, Christian-Jews (???), which is like saying I am a secular-Hindu, a Christian-Muslim, or a Christian-Buddhist..go figure,

    # 22
    Nope, Tu Quoque don’t know William, facts, WKL, Charlie boy, girl, man or woman, nor do I speak for CCP, ABC, CNN, chinks, gooks, spooks or self-righteous white men. And I sure as hell don’t know FOARP -IMHO, is but a biased history buff , just another imported hooligan who gets into fights with chinese folks in the bars in China and forever pitching Taiwanese culture and politics against China. Not a balanced man I might say. Another one of them British educated snobs, perhaps? To be clear, When FOARP is right, he is right though – no one is ever totally wrong all the time – even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day – so please show a little respect for Mr. facts and others who all are guests of FM.

  24. Tu Quoque Says:

    FOARP asks: “So it is a mystery how did Hamas ever get their hands on supposed Chinese-made rocked when it doesn’t exist.”

    It is a mystery? Um, let me take a stab in the dark here, oh, so mysterious, oh so dark, oh, so very sinister….Listen, these are Chinese made weapons, wow , OMG! that’s a double whammy there because the Chinese condemns Israeli aggressions, inhumane treatment of Palestinians. Palestinian homes were taken over and occupied by force by the Israelis. In legal and moral terms in fact, these Palestinian homes were robbed and stolen by Manhattan and other American Jews with the help of the British and American military forces who, um, I think carry and use US & British made weapons, driving the righfull Palestinian home and land owners to live as refugees in their ancestral homeland. Hm, sounds familiar doesn’t it???? Where have I heard the same story before????? Oh, I’m sorry, give them a couple hundred years, they will do the Palestinains right by turning their Muslim hellhole into a lilywhite humane Christendom, like they did with the African colonies, their imported African Slaves, the Australian aboriginals and the Native American Indians. What’s a couple hundred years and sacrificing ten, twenty generations of collateral damages to these human beings? Look, even China went through 30 years of bad politics. We, White folks at least treat right by our own kind – as long as none whites are doing all the hard work and suffering. Rest assure, one day,when we are rich, they will be compensated – what was it now that our generous forefathers promised the Native American Indians and the black slaves – something about mules and acres of land, I think. Oh, we must thank the Nazi defectors for helping us build such fine weapons of mass destructions. And oh, damn the black marketeers for selling Hamas low tech (alas, some are Chinese made) weapons against our US trained, and nuclear armed Israeli rich friends.

  25. Wukailong Says:

    @Tu Quoque: “WKL: “The West = US in the minds of most Chinese nationalists, a fact of life we’ll just have to accept, it seems” What, accept a lie? What utter crap! For weeks we’ve been having a go at France right here on FM…”

    I think I know better how these discussions work now – something like this gets called a “lie”, “crap” and other superlatives, and there is no benefit of doubt. Of course, if you agree with facts I wouldn’t expect much else, let alone the wish to have a good discussion.

    Despite mentioning France or Germany every now and then, almost all examples given and all generalizations done are with the US in mind. I’ve heard a lot of generalizations saying things about the West that are only true about the US.

    But OK, I’m willing to change my statement to “The US = West in the minds of Chinese nationalists most of the time, with some occasional picking on France and the UK. All generalizations are always done on the basis of US = West”.

  26. Tu Quoque Says:

    Oh WKL, you misunderstood, I was agreeing with you there, my fellow FM movers.

    You said “a fact of life we’ll just have to accept, it seems”which I was being facetious by responding with what? (We can’t) Accept [such] a lie? [This is crap/ BS – NO !]

    I agree that some nationalists do blindly generalize, but not all nationalists are bad or ignorant as you [might inadvertantly] suggest there.

    Otherwise, we don’t disagree.

  27. HongKonger Says:

    I got this in my email today. Thought I’d share with y’all:

    This poem was nominated by UN as the best poem of 2008
    Written by an ~African Kid~

    When I born, I black
    When I grow up, I black
    When I go in Sun, I black
    When I scared, I black
    When I sick, I black
    And when I die, I still black

    And you white fellow……
    When you born, you pink
    When you grow up, you white
    When you go in sun, you red
    When you cold, you blue
    When you scared, you yellow
    When you sick, you green
    And when you die, you gray
    And you calling me COLOURED?

  28. Steve Says:

    @ HongKonger #27: I believe that’s an old Malcom X quote.

  29. HongKonger Says:

    Steve,

    Ha,ha, no kidding….I dunno…I just got it in the email, and it says, “This poem was nominated by UN as the best poem of 2008, Written by an ~African Kid~ ” I wonder though,….Malcolm X being an American, wouldn’t “colored,” i.e. spelled the american way instead of COLOURED? Methinks, me friend is just testing if I remember what I read of the Malcome X book he gave me three years ago. LOL. Thanks Steve for the heads up 🙂

  30. facts Says:

    @all
    The issue here is that there is no conclusive physical evidence to show Hamas has Chinese weapons. Western media is smearing China, associating China with violence. That’s all. To Foarp, his questions is “why it’s impossible (for Hamas using Chinese weapon)?” That’s called guilty until proven innocent. That’s the standard Western media and Foarp uses to judge and demonize China. By this standard, the free press propaganda mill is free to spread rumors vilify China, all it needs is a unidentified officer/official. When being challenged, Western propaganda defenders say “why impossible?”

    @Tu Quoque, hainan88
    Regarding the personal attacks foarp launched against me, that’s all he could do. That’s the only way to avoid taking my charges head on.

    @admin
    I disagree with the admin to highlight foarp’s post, while not highlight the ones with sound arguments that oppose foarp’s defense of Western propaganda.

  31. Steve Says:

    @ HongKonger: I looked it up and it’s under Unsorted in this Wikiquote. It’s a pretty clever quotation. 🙂

  32. HongKonger Says:

    Thanks Steve for Wikiquote.

    Something else caught my attention though.

    Wow, Looks like all that is being discussed today had in fact being said back in the 1960s….

    I must be half-interested back then, I guess I should re-read Malcom X’s book.

    Malcolm X on Zionism (1964)

    Taken from the Egyptian Gazette (17 September 1964)
    The modern 20th century weapon of neo-imperialism is “dollarism.” The Zionists have mastered the science of dollarism: the ability to come posing as a friend and benefactor, bearing gifts and all other forms of economic aid and offers of technical assistance. Thus, the power and influence of Zionist Israel in many of the newly “independent” African nations has fast-become even more unshakeable than that of the 18th century European colonialists… and this new kind of Zionist colonialism differs only in form and method, but never in motive or objective.
    Zionist Israel’s occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments, making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people.
    “They cripple the bird’s wing, and then condemn it for not flying as fast as they.”
    Did the Zionists have the legal or moral right to invade Arab Palestine, uproot its Arab citizens from their homes and seize all Arab property for themselves just based on the “religious” claim that their forefathers lived there thousands of years ago? Only a thousand years ago the Moors lived in Spain. Would this give the Moors of today the legal and moral right to invade the Iberian Peninsula, drive out its Spanish citizens, and then set up a new Moroccan nation … where Spain used to be, as the European zionists have done to our Arab brothers and sisters in Palestine?…

  33. Wukailong Says:

    @Tu Quoque: My apologies. 😉 I guess I’m a bit too ready to believe at times.

  34. S.K. Cheung Says:

    Gosh, I don’t understand the brouhaha about this. An Israeli defense official claims they have found a Grad rocket that they have reason to believe originated in China. That is about 10,000 miles removed from anyone accusing China of selling such rockets directly to Hamas for the purpose of firing at Israel. And yet some people are still bent out of shape, mostly about an accusation that no one is even making. Is this what chasing shadows looks like?

    I mean, if people have such a complex as to construe everything about China as being in a negative light, and to think that everyone is out to smear China at every turn, how do they get up in the morning and function as a human being? And how many fools will have to move how many mountains before the light of day will be cast upon these dark souls?

  35. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Facts:
    “The issue here is that there is no conclusive physical evidence to show Hamas has Chinese weapons.” – no, what we have is an IDF official saying so to a reporter. So do you have physical evidence that the IDF official was making this up? Do you have physical evidence that the reporter was engaging in creative writing? And what would constitute “conclusive physical evidence” to you? Would Olmert holding a spent rocket shell, standing in front of a copy of today’s newspaper, be sufficient? Or would you then accuse someone of doctoring the photo, or that Mossad fabricated a rocket shell with Chinese markings in order to falsely implicate China?
    You’re trying to take a molehill, and make it into K2. And you’re approaching Everest-proportions rapidly.

  36. FOARP Says:

    “That’s called guilty until proven innocent. ”

    It’s called nothing of the kind, it’s called “reporting what others have said”. Has China issued a complaint or a denial? No? Why not? Could it be that this is because that part of the world is so awash with weaponry that pretty much everything short of an anti-aircraft missile can be obtained if someone is willing to pay the price? Nobody is disputing this except crazed internet nationalists.

    Go check out the website of China’s embassy in Israel – not one mention:

    http://www.chinaembassy.org.il/eng/

  37. FOARP Says:

    Oh, and meantime here’s an interesting story from a few years ago:

    “Chinese Deny Forming Ties with Hamas – Herb Keinon
    Spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Israel Lu Jing on Tuesday denied Hamas Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar’s claim that he had been invited to China. He also said he did not know of any intention to invite a Hamas official in the near future.
    Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said, “If Hamas can get recognition without changing its positions, there is no chance it will become more moderate.” Israel has informed the Chinese and other nations of its position that Hamas should be denied international legitimacy until it recognizes Israel, renounces terrorism, and accepts previous agreements with Israel. (Jerusalem Post) “

  38. FOARP Says:

    @HKer – Malcolm X eventually went back on all that talk (to his credit) when he went to a Muslim conference and found out what a load of BS Elijah Mohammed and the rest of the Nation of Islam had sold him. Elijah Mohammed’s version of Islam was not Islam as the majority of Muslims recognise it, but a race-based invention of his own. Check it out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_islam#Comparison_with_traditional_Islam

    @Tu Quoque #24 – I know anti-semitism when I see it, and it was not me who asked that question, but Charlie-boy.

  39. Anon FMer Says:

    SK @34, “how many fools will have to move how many mountains before the light of day will be cast upon these dark souls?”

    Well, you can start with Gordon Chang’s soul. The author of “Comming Collapse of China” just went on Lou Dobbs to accused the Chinese of selling rockets to Hamas.

  40. Wukailong Says:

    @FOARP: “Elijah Mohammed’s version of Islam was not Islam as the majority of Muslims recognise it, but a race-based invention of his own.”

    I would call that a mormonization of Islam.

  41. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Anon #39:
    you’re right. Looks like lots of people are still sitting in the dark.

  42. HongKonger Says:

    # 38
    @ FOARP

    Yeah, man, Malcom X did go thru several drastic phases of growth – from a felon to a political activist to a martyr. It is amazing how manyextremely smart people are susceptable to unbelieveable religious and ideological total BS. The fact that Sects not unlike NOI are today still thriving is mind boggling. Sects or religious abberational groups such as the LSOJC, the Moonies, those chanting Hindus in Orange, those Name-it-and-claim-it greedy Prostestants, the Christian Science no-medical help tenets that Tom Cruise helps advocates, and their counterparts, the pseudo-buddhist claims preached by ace con-artist H Z Li of FLG, and what was that Taiwanese sect whose beliefs included their own version of the Christian despensionist’s 19th century invention of the mid-air “Beem me up Scottie,” Rapture, except for them it’s some space ship, aka UFO, which will save just them at the end of the world, etc? Bob Dylan went from religion to religion., the Reverent Billy Graham went from Jesus alone saves, a traditionist to conceding to the theology of Universalism. I suppose it was a good thing that Malcom X became a traditional Muslim in the end.

    # 40, WKL: “I would call that a mormonization of Islam.”

    LOL. Exactly.

  43. HongKonger Says:

    “I know anti-semitism when I see it, and it was not me who asked that question, but Charlie-boy.”

    I hope calling Zionism for what it is isn’t anti-semitism. UI believe our esteemed Jewish poster, Jerry is not too happy with that movement either. Hey Jerry, how was your trip to HK, did you find Chungking Mansion?

    “Well, you can start with Gordon Chang’s soul. The author of “Comming Collapse of China” just went on Lou Dobbs to accused the Chinese of selling rockets to Hamas.”

    Go figure…

  44. HongKonger Says:

    “The issue here is that there is no conclusive physical evidence to show Hamas has Chinese weapons.” – no, what we have is an IDF official saying so to a reporter.

    LOL…but false reports like this had started a few wars before….Hmmm…
    but then, FOARP is right, “the world is so awash with weaponry that pretty much everything short of an anti-aircraft missile can be obtained if someone is willing to pay the price.”

  45. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To HKer:
    This “incident” didn’t start any war; the Israelis and Palestinians took care of that on their own.

    As FOARP has said several times, no one is suggesting that China sold them to Hamas. Which is why I don’t understand why Facts is worked up into a tizzy.

  46. Hong Konger Says:

    “the world is so awash with weaponry that pretty much everything short of an anti-aircraft missile can be obtained if someone is willing to pay the price.”

    It matters not (to me) who sold whom the tools of death, for wherever the carcass is, the vultures will gather. The fishmongers sell fish and the warmongers sell wars. The first makes an honest living with the lives of millions of fish for the benefit of fellow human beings, the other benefits none but themselves. Yet who do you think smells better, lives in luxury, wins accolades, enjoys public respect and gets tax breaks ?

  47. Steve Says:

    @ Hong Konger: It’s not only what you said, but the entire economic model that arms procurement is built around is flawed. Arms manufacturer develops Weapon X, and development costs are very high, partly subsidized by his government. He then receives the contract from his government to manufacture Weapon X and recoups most of the cost of his development.

    Now he creates sub-Weapon X, a slightly dumbed down version that he can sell to other less developed countries for pure profit and that’s where the company really makes its money. So the economic model is based on selling more and more advanced weaponry to less developed countries to offset development costs for extremely advanced weaponry to your own country, thereby flooding the developing world with more and more advanced weapons, which make killing people easier and easier.

    Every country with an arms manufacturing industry works this way, and if you develop a “hit” weapon, the profits are enormous and you “smell better, live in luxury, win accolades, enjoy public respect and get tax breaks”. 🙁

  48. Wahaha Says:

    FOARP,

    Didnt Europeans historically have negative view on Jews ?

    If so, you cant use how EUROPEAN media has reported Gaza to prove that media is unbiased.

  49. Wahaha Says:

    I wouldnt say Facts is 100% right, but he has very reasonable reason to say so.

    Here is one of the best examples how West media manipulated news : (from the link posted by Steve.)
    _______________________________________________________________________________
    ……

    It was on March 28th 1959 that the Communist Party announced the dissolution of the existing local government in Tibet – following the Dalai Lama’s escape a few days’ beforehand.

    China says that this move freed about one million Tibetans from serfdom and slavery.
    …….

    ____________________________________________________________________

    First, “Communist” Party, we know almost all westerners hate anything related to communism and dont believe what “Communist” party says.

    then the writer masterfully wrote ” China says ….”

    Did he tell the truth ? Yes.

    Did he lie to the british public ? Yes, He manipulated british public.

    No wonder so many Westerners are brainwashed about Tibet.

  50. FOARP Says:

    @Whahahaha – You too, I’m giving up trying to convince all of you maniacs that the Great Western Media Conspiracy (gasp!) doesn’t exist. I have other things to worry about in my life.

  51. Wukailong Says:

    @Wahaha (#48): “Didnt Europeans historically have negative view on Jews ?”

    Yeah, but historically people have held a lot of nutty views. Europe, for its part, has moved on. I don’t see much anti-semitism these days and I don’t believe it’s very prevalent. The reason parts of Europe is negative towards Israel is mostly political, where leftists tend to side with Palestine, and rightists with Israel.

  52. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Wahaha #49:
    huh??
    How does your quote support the assertion that, because Israel was claiming some Hamas-fired rockets to be Chinese-made, people will automatically equate use of a CHinese rocket to the conclusion that China sold them to Hamas?
    To me, that’s apples and oranges. In fact, it’s apples and something completely and utterly unrelated to apples.

    As for your quote, if westerners disbelieve the communist party as a matter of routine, should we not believe that the local government of Tibet was dissolved on the date in question? What, you mean the TGIE had really been the TG-Not-IE for all these years? Who knew….
    And really, since the CCP is the legitimate government of CHina, do you think there is much distinction between what “China says” and what “the CCP says”, in terms of believability?

  53. BMY Says:

    @wukailong #51

    I changed your words a bit 🙂

    The reason parts of Europe is negative towards Israel is mostly political, where leftists and millions of Muslims tend to side with Palestine, and rightists with Israel.

  54. Wahaha Says:

    FOARP,

    I am a maniac ? wahaha …

    BBC lied.

    CNN lied.

    Wikipedia lied.

    and watched what West did to Russia, …

    I am a maniac …..

    OK.

    ___________________________________

    SKC,

    Read again, I was refering to the comment by Facts.

    and if you still fail to see what ” China says” means, well, … God bless Canada.

  55. S.K. Cheung Says:

    To Wahaha:
    “Read again, I was refering to the comment by Facts.” – which is exactly why I paraphrased his assertions while questioning your logic. Reading it again provides me with no redeeming value…so I think I’ll pass.

    “china says”, “CCP says”, to me they both mean the same thing…which is to say vanishingly little. If there is a god, maybe someday what “China says” will not be the same as what “CCP says”, because when that day arrives, it’ll mean CCP’s no longer running the show. Amen to that.

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